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Saturday, May 31, 2008

The Deadly Amnesty Debate

Who will forget that professor Kimya confrontation at the Moi Sports Centre Kasarani during a crucial Kanu delegates conference in 2002?

Then Vice president Prof George Saitoti threw a tantrum on discovering that his name was missing on the list of contestants for party chairman to take over from President Moi. And that was after spending a fortune campaigning amongst party delegates to ensure his victory. President Moi in full view of the rolling TV cameras stood up and angrily shouted; "Professor Kimya." And he had to do it several times before a still-shaking Saitoti quietly sat down in humiliation.

It was probably the most embarassing moment for current internal security minister Prof George Saitoti.

Still it must have given the Mathematics professor great satisfaction that the aftermath of that fiasco at Kasarani was a death knell on the Kanu coffin from which the oldest political party in the country has yet to recover from. In fact despite spirited ongoing efforts currently, most analysts believe that Kanu is truly dead and buried and will never come anywhere near recapturing its' old glory.

Still it is the new political realities on the ground that are of great concern to many Kenyans.

For instance Prof George Saitoti has suddenly found himself on the opposing corner of the ring with Prime Minister Raila Odinga over the issue of amnesty for post election violence perpetrators. In fact it must greatly irk the professor that anybody would want to call the hooligans and arsonists who caused such mayhem early this year, freedom fighters.

If truth be told even the Prime Minister himself has taken his current position under intense political preassure. ODM diehards will hate me for saying this, but the truth of the matter is that those who hold real power and sway within Kenya's largest political party are the ones in control and they are indeed the ones who have put Raila Odinga between a rock and a very hard place. That is the political reality. But as I have already said in previous posts, the deadliest probable outcome of this so-called amnesty debate is the very survival of the infant grand coalition government. Actually the question analysts are now busy pondering over, is what are the likely consequences of the collapse of the coalition government? I have a friend who would just shut their eyes and quickly get away just at the mere mention of that question. And with good reason.

Fellow Kenyans and friends of Kenya, I hate to bring bad news to you on a Sunday, but that is precisely the question we must all begin to address as soon as possible.

Everybody knows that the grand coalition government is a marriage of convenience that is held together too losely by factors that are already being overwhelmed by the emerging Kibaki succession war. But to have a Prime Minister and a minister incharge of internal security of the same government reading from different scripts is a sign that is impossible to miss and one that clearly tells us all that maybe divorce will come much sooner than expected.

Personally I do not want to begin to even contemplate the possible consquences and yet I must.

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22 comments:

Anonymous said...

Chris,

We all want democracy. We want our country to be run according to the laws of the land. We want sincerity and truth in the governm and in our beautiful country. BUT this is just a dream, a wish or a mirage.

The reality is: some people see themselves as above the law. Just a few to mention.

1) Kibaki was the first post-election violence offender. He ordered GSU to beat journalists, kick Ruto and other ODM members and observers. HE IS A FREE MAN earning over 2million of tax payer's Sh.

2)Kiviuti did a serious offence in declaring the presidential winner although he never knew who won. This man is a criminal who triggered the serious youth protest and violence. NOW HE IS A FREE MAN AND NOBODY WILL EVER SUE HIM.

3) Michuki gave shoot to kill orders, thus causing deaths to innocent demonstrators in Kisumu,Kakamega, etc. HE IS FREE AND WILL ALWAYS BE FREE.

4) Mungiki turned to innocent people in Nakuru and Naivasha. They killed and burnt Kales, Luhyas, Kisiis, Luos a live trying to avenge the Kiambaa church deaths. The culprits of Kiambaa are all in prison, but NO MUNGIKI has been arrested. THEY ARE ALL FREE AND WILL NEVER FACE ANY PROSECUTOR IN KENYA.

5) The returning officers of Molo, etc whose mischief resulted to the massive stealing of votes have never been touched. THESE OFFICERS ARE FREE AND YET TO GET PROMOTION.

There are many more examples. Now, Chris: is the laws of Kenya applying only to Luos, Kales, Kisiis, Luhyas and Coast people but not to Mungiki and all thugs from Central? Even British High Comm wondered why.

The day I hear that Kibaki, Michuki, Kiviuti, Mungiki, etc will have been arrested I'll support the calling for NO AMNESTY FOR POST-ELECTION CRIMINALS.

Now I can only say that all must enjoy the law of IMPUNITY in Kenya. FREE ALL the youth unconditionally.

FREEDOM FOR ALL and let's start a fresh.

Tom

Anonymous said...

I really dont know what will come of this amnesty issue. My personal sentiment is that those people who are proven to have murdered, set people's houses ablaze, robbed people, raped, caused grave injuries like those who slaughtered people on buses and those who circumcised grown men forcefully in Kibera should all be locked up and those whose crimes are severe should be waiting for the gallows.

There is no way any sane person can go about doing some of those things and then expect to get away with it under the banner of 'amnesty' that one I differ with those ODM people. Those people who were killed were people's relatives and I dont think its right for the perpetrators to go free simply because there is amnesty. It creates a very bad precedent for this country where there is no respect for any kind of law and order.

I was angry and had very angry thoughts when Kibaki stole the elections but did anyone see me murdering anyone? Splitting pregnant women's wombs? Burning people in churches and then standing around to chant and laugh about it? These lot need to pay for their crimes. That one is simple and Saitoti is right, they should not go free.

The only people who should not go to jail are the demonstrators, the twig carriers who did nothing else but protest peacefully on the streets and if we feel we can extend the forgiveness maybe the supermarket tv and fridge looters and the timber thieves in mombasa, these ones can get community service orders for a week or so, their crimes are not grave.

Problem is, the chief architects Kibaki, Saitoti, Michuki and all those people who sponsored the violence financially or otherwise are going to go free, so maybe some of you will differ with me. But the alternative is to have killers, rapists and arsonist chanters walking around free because others can't be prosecuted? I dont think so!

-Mrembo

Anonymous said...

In this Amnesty Debate, Raila is wrong. To call for unconditional amnesty for all the arrested persons regardless of the gravity of the crimes they committed is to plant seeds that are likely to germinate and undermine the fabric of the nation. It is not lost on many that he has also called for dialogue with Mungiki thugs without placing any pre-conditions on the thugs. Through his advocacy for criminals in the last two months, he has mounted full assult on law and order in the country. He has decided to sacrifice the blood of innocent victims at the altar of political expediency. That is why many Kenyans tend to see him as man who glorifies violence!!

Anonymous said...

Who glorifies violence more? The vote thief seated inside State House. Or he who the presidency was stolen from by the vote thief?

Please answer that simple question anon@2:41

Patriot damu

deroo said...

Amnesty, Hapana.

In Serbia, they are still looking for a guy called Ratko Mladic. In Rwanda, they are still looking for a bloke holed-up in a house belonging to one Hosea Kiplagat in Karen.

Ili iwe funzo kwa wengine wenye nia kama hiyo, the law must be followed to the letter. But how long does it take to ask Kipchumba whether he burnt Wanjiru and her son in a church?

On your post Chris, I support your observations and the truth of the matter is that, RAO is in a 'I wish I knew' situation. He is walking on crushed shells!

Rightly said, apart from the name and a few goodies that might have come with it, there is absolutely no sensual clout that this great son of Bondo carries.

Look at the way things have been going in the last few weeks, and many a man in politics business will discover that there is something amiss.

True, on the day they signed the deal, I did make a comment and it was that all powers will remain with Kibaki and the status quo has been further helped with the calamitous events in the country due to the food situation among other things.

Despite the fact that the PM's office is new, there is little in place at the moment to show that there is real share of power abd the echoes of Grand Opposition have even made a bad situation worse.

While there is no justified reason for the ODMers in Rift Valley to say that they have been shortchanged, the current sitaution makes the powers that Raila throws around seem non-existent.

He might love to have the political power that he has, but the current situation makes crossing Niagara Falls on a tight rope look easy.

A abhor the calls for amnesty and the Grand Opposition. The law should be allowed to take its cause and as things are, there is soon to be a situation where 'Dont interfere with my ministry. You are just a cordinator of ministries' might arise.

-Derek-

Proud Kikuyu Woman said...

Peace with Justice!

To those whose votes were stolen (ODM na PNU leaders and supporters), and the victims of the aftermath-the displaced and the dead. The whole nine yards. Actually, the whole 582,650 sq km. Wearing blinders on this one can't do, won't do.

Anonymous said...

The only reason why Raila is calling for unconditional release of ALL those arrested during post election violence is ‘cause he knows when those youths start giving evidence in court, he is likely to be named as the main instigator.
Already those arrested in the RV have named Ruto, Kosgey, Bett, and Ntinama as the mastermind of the violence in the province.

Anonymous said...

In the past i have always agreed with Rao and still believe he is the best president Kenya hasnt had, but on amnesty - he doesnt have my support. The rule of law should not be thrown to the altar of political expediency for short term gains. This act may come to haunt Raila and hurt irreparably the 2012 elections. My advise he should leave this to Ruto and his gang. In any case the Luo did not kill, the Kales did - for their own selfish reasons. On demonstrator in Kibera etc - those ones amnesty should be upheld. But if you killed, Raped, burnt someones house - am sorry. Rao let this people pay for their sins. You never ordered them to do. My brother Raila - on this one heed my humble advise.

Anonymous said...

The PM has put himself in all this. Unfortunately i think strongly he is fighting a loosing battle. The international community and most Kenyans may not be with him on this. ,my proposal is that he should ensure the cases move on faster and with speed so that minor issues are addressed judiciously. He should also emphasise that killers, those who raped etc - should get full dose of Kenyan justice. He should also fight to streamline the justie system so that we all can have faith in it.

This way he will be a hero. Am sorry on this one, Professor Kimya as you call him is right. Rao is wrong. Its that simple.

Anonymous said...

Chris,

I think Rao is lost on this one. He is coming out as someone who is beholden to someone else. He is complaining the way a mere mp would complain and making Kenyans realise he has no power whatsoever. The best he should do is convince the thief in the private meetings and influence the decisions. Unfortunately the old man does not sing to teh gallery. He may take too long to respond on this. My fear is that all this exposes Raila. Also the people who are also fighting hard on this are Orengo and Anyang Nyongo - where are the rest. This this is exposing Rao seriously. I would advise he changes tact on this one. Otherwise he will be responding to teh police commissioners, spokesmen etc. He should not put himslef in the league of Mungatana. This amnesty things is tricky - its above prnouncements in public foras.

All the best Rao on this - but make sure you dont fail, otherwise your stature will keep on getting injured.

Anonymous said...

Chris,

I knew where Raila wa heading when he called for the mungiki talks and release. He was setting Kibaki. The idea was - you have released thugs - why not democrats? Fortunetly the rationale is out. Raila is worse-off on this one.

Anonymous said...

Killing, givings orders to kill and creating a situation where people kill one another are all serious capital offences.

The law should apply to all. The big men and women involved must resign immediately and allow for a fair investigation.

In the eyes of the Creator killing with a panga or with a match box is just as bad as ordering Mungiki to kill or sending GSU to rape. Let's all be sincere. Crime is crime.

Either it is AMNESTY FOR ALL OR AMNESTY FOR NONE.

Anonymous said...

There is an unhelathy mix of issues being bandied together as one

from my understanding and talking to different people, there all sorts of people are in custody ranging from

a) the protestors who possibly engaged riot police in running battles

b) those who caused damage to property (railway line, buildings etc)

c) those who barricaded roads

d) those who (have) occupied vacated properties or looted

e) and of course those that went about killing

and lastly the contentious issue or decree given to shoot to kill unarmed protestors

i beleive the amnesty is intended for the protestors in (a) through (c) while the law should follow (d) and (e) but to also include the planners and sponsors whether it was planned pre-election of post-election in retaliation or revenge. the police officers and minister who issued shoot to kill unarmed protestors orders should also resign from public service.

BTW What became of the gangster in police uniform who was captured on TV killing the two youth in Kisumu?

UrXlnc

Anonymous said...

Kenya is a country where big thugs go through, while petty thieves are jailed accordingly.

I am not glorifying crime but check Kenyan history and you will know why the outgoing British envoy meant with this country embraces impunity.

1)Mboya was killed. The BIG man was 100% responsible, Njega said. Nobody was punished.

2)JM was murdered. Kibaki (the only gov official who attended)said, we shall find the killers no matter how long it will take. No body has been brought to book, although the Big man was 100% responsible. Kibaki is silent ever since.

3)Ouko was killed and slaughtered like a goat. Every child can tell who killed him. Nobody has been arrested.

4)Mbai was murdered by people who are against devolution. You know them. Who has been arrested?

4)Melitus Were of Embakasi was killed. Have you heard anybody arrested?

5)David of Animoi was openly shot. Love got sour was the comment of Mr Ali. What has happened to the killer? Dont expect anything.

6)How many cases of misterious deaths have occured in Kenya? Numerous.

Amnesty calling is not about who is wrong and who is right. Not every picture is black or white. The matter has nothing to with Raila's views.

IT HAS TO DO WITH HOW JUSTICE IS BEING APPLIED IN KENYA.

A big man can steal, rape, kill, slaughter and corrupt. He will not be mentioned in any court, even in this blog. But a small stone thrower in Eldoret must face the full force of the law.

My view is that the law has to start with the people at the top, and then to the beggars in Kisumu. Otherwise history will repeat itself in the year 2012 and the next victim would be you or your relative.

Forget your political affliation or your dirty tribe, wenn talking about justice. Justice knows no tribe, if applied correctly.

Anonymous said...

Kenya is a country where big thugs go through, while petty thieves are jailed accordingly.

I am not glorifying crime but check Kenyan history and you will know why the outgoing British envoy meant with this country embraces impunity.

1)Mboya was killed. The BIG man was 100% responsible, Njega said. Nobody was punished.

2)JM was murdered. Kibaki (the only gov official who attended)said, we shall find the killers no matter how long it will take. No body has been brought to book, although the Big man was 100% responsible. Kibaki is silent ever since.

3)Ouko was killed and slaughtered like a goat. Every child can tell who killed him. Nobody has been arrested.

4)Mbai was murdered by people who are against devolution. You know them. Who has been arrested?

4)Melitus Were of Embakasi was killed. Have you heard anybody arrested?

5)David of Animoi was openly shot. Love got sour was the comment of Mr Ali. What has happened to the killer? Dont expect anything.

6)How many cases of misterious deaths have occured in Kenya? Numerous.

Amnesty calling is not about who is wrong and who is right. Not every picture is black or white. The matter has nothing to with Raila's views.

IT HAS TO DO WITH HOW JUSTICE IS BEING APPLIED IN KENYA.

A big man can steal, rape, kill, slaughter and corrupt. He will not be mentioned in any court, even in this blog. But a small stone thrower in Eldoret must face the full force of the law.

My view is that the law has to start with the people at the top, and then to the beggars in Kisumu. Otherwise history will repeat itself in the year 2012 and the next victim would be you or your relative.

Forget your political affliation or your dirty tribe, wenn talking about justice. Justice knows no tribe, if applied correctly.

Anonymous said...

For Heaven's Sake,

Raila needs to settle down into governing and abandon political activism! His constitutional mandate as the PM is to coordinate and supervise the functions of the ministries. His office is not a policy making office but an administrative one. Neither is PM office a legislative or judicial office.

The policy making body is the cabinet under the chairmanship of the president. Laws are made by the parliament under the stewardship of the Speaker. Raila should not try to usurp the powers of these two bodies. His duty is to cooordinate and supervise the execution of policy, as laid out by the cabinet, within the legal framework supplied by the parliament. It is that simple. If at any time he is dissatisfied with the policy or the laws, he should lobby the respective body for a change rather than contradict them in his speeches before his endless homecoming parties.

For example, the cabinet met, deliberated and decided that there will be no blanket amnesty to the post-election criminals, yet in a homecoming party he calls (without shame) for the UNCONDITIONAL RELEASE OF ALL THOSE ARRESTED. That would include murderers, arsonists, and rapists. He has glamourized these social outcasts by calling them democrats and freedom fighters. It took the police commissioner to point to him that to the police and the law these are criminal suspects. And now it has taken the president to remind him that the cabinet decided that there will be NO BLANKET AMNESTY.

Raila has even gone further and tried to ursup the powers of the judiciary. Before a function hosted by LSK, he said that these criminal suspects do not need amnesty because they have not committed any crimes. Whether crimes were committed is for the courts to determine after examining the evidence adduced to them; it is not the work of the coordinator and supervisor of govt policy to decide on the innocence of those arrested!!

By temperament, Raila seems unsuited to handle matters of law and order for deep inside he is born a party activist. While it may be too much to expect radical change at his age, an evening remedial course in govt might help him and save the country from his outlandish style of govt administration especially in matters of rule of law!!!

Anonymous said...

Those calling for a blanket AMNESTY are demagogues who are inviting the nation to engage in mass AMNESIA for their selfish political expediency. It is unacceptable to all civilised Kenyans who seek to build a nation under the rule of law and not under the rule of murderers and rapists and arsonist.

These demagogues should be calling for expedited trials. So, let us parade these low-lifes in courts and hang those who deserve to be hanged and release those who may have been netted by mistake.

Anonymous said...

Coalition marriage of convenience is not working Raila should stop cheating himself and being blind- his supporters all over the country want a fresh start or else-
did anyone notice Mandera the lease of people in jail by militants?? that is soon what is going to happen- we have ask kibaki to be fair and release the youth who did nothing but protest about him rigging the elections and during his speeches he refused- so now kenyans and the wardens will take the law into their hands just like kibaki is using his jungle law- we will release out youth from jail because they are innocent and if we release other criminals that will be too bad- Raila does not seem to understand - we voted him in to stand up for us - not to get cozy with the kibaki goon and forget our youth in jail- where every day they are tutored and some we have already buried!! Tell Raila his words now are empty and unless we see action within the next two weeks then we will have no choice but to free them- let that be known only fools stand around listening to thieves and thugs like kibaki and his cronies- look at the land issues- how dare he undermine orengo-
hasn't Raila seen through kibaki and his cronies that he has nothing??? we voted yes and kibaki rigged yes- but the coalition is suppose to be 50%/50% but for what we have seen up to date it is not and time out-
we the voters want out and back to a refresh mandate and elections- desolve parliament - so none kibaki or raila will not have the right to rule- the speaker of the house can take over- so that kenyans can decide who they want 100% to lead the nation- our patient has run out!! release the youth or else face it!!! mungiki were right - kibaki and his cronies do not understand the ordinary peoples language- but their own greed and wanting to stay in control! look at all the cases- Anglo leasing!! and Grand Regency!!Pattni pardoned!! what is the difference regarding pattni and out youth in jail?? Patttni stole from kenyans and he is working around free!!our youth were fighting for their democracy and kibaki is the one who stole their vote on the other way round yet they are in jail!! how dare!! kenyans no more demonstrations we need to have some action to shut up this foolish leaders who drive around in big care- have big parties fill their bellies while out children are in jail for defending their right to vote for democracy!!

Anonymous said...

AFTER THE MADARAKA SPEECH KIBAKI GAVE SAYING NO AMNESTY TO FOR TH INNOCENT YOUTH JAILED FOR DEMONSTRATIONS AGAINST THE RIGGED ELECTIONS!!

(by the way prison wardens in many prisons in rift valley and western have confirmed they are holding in the cells more than 2000 youths and others brought in because of the 27th Decembers demonstration and they claim the kikuyu youth are being released by orders from above)??? RAILA BETTER WAKE UP OR ELSE WHO WILL GET NO VOTES FROM WESTERN AND CENTRAL- NO MORE PEP TALKS PEOPLE WANT TO SEE ACTION AND THE YOUTHS RELEASE - WHY REALIZING ONLY KIKUYU ?? BEHIND HIDDEN AGENDA'S?

Second did i hear right ?? Kibaki undermining ORENGO?? now this goes beyond- wanting the coalition to work!! kibaki seems to be undermining Raila and Odm each step they take to make kenya workable and better!
his madaraka day speech showed Kenyands that kibaki is not interested in the coalition government but he is only playing lip-service-

So my question is for Bwana Raila?? what is his plan "B"- Kenyans want out of the coalition and they have indicated that to Raila loud and clear- from Nyanza!!Rift Valley!! Western!! coast!! Nothern Eastern and now a big chunk of Ukambani- this it the time to do it- call for a fresh presidential elections and I 'm positive Raila will win!! but he has to do it now!! now!!

Anonymous said...

Raila is playing politics , if he keeps quiet then the odmers will think he is supporting the mass hangings that kibaki is planning , on the other hand if he speaks aginst it and kibaki goes ahead with it then raila like pontuis pilate will wash his hands clean, and walk out unscathed , you see kibaki has nothing to lose so all the odm can hang for all he cares.

Anonymous said...

anon3:42 PM
I suggest you say that to KIBAKI he is the one with AMNESIA and selfish political expediency. It is unacceptable to all innocent Kenyans who died under his direct order to the police force to shoot to kill innocent demonstrators while others were gathered up and jailed!!it is a shame when all kenyans and the whole world knows even bbc reported it and the church leaders by the way kikuyu Bishops and leaders have condamned kibaki and his cronies for having used the mungiki to slaughter and behead kenyans in Naivasha and Nakuru and after using them slaughtering them like dogs!!is this the president kenyans want ?? nope!! no kenyan respects kibaki except from central province kenyans!!

Kenyans seek to build a nation under the rule of law?? but whose law is it?? kibaki's is the the law of the jungle favoring only kikuyu's who are engaged in before and after elections murderers and rapists and arsonist.(good example Nakuru and naivasha- let us not forget kibera, kisumu and kakamega where Kibaki ordered the police force to shoot and kill innocent kenyans!!

My questions is who is kibaki telling to face the law?? when he himself has crimes to answer to?? you fools!!

kumekucha!! why are you posting some nasty post here about no amnesty and when we counter them you do not post ours?? please post mine!! I'm really pissed off by this selective justice!! I lost my relative in nakuru at the hands of a mungiki panga!! send by kibaki and they were proud to be protected by the police while they hacked innocent kenyans to death!! who the f,..k is kibaki trying to tell about justice?? kenya will never be the same and he is wasting his time! I bet Raila knows very well th coalition will not last this year mark my words!! kenyans will not stand for all this sham!!

proper and fair justice must be served- kibaki should look at the example of the former Ethiopia president Mengistu!!haile!! verdict death!! even while he is hiding in Zimbabwe!! wata mushika!! so let him have fun while it last- but remember he must answer for the dead!! bodies he ordered to be killed!!!!he will!!

Anonymous said...

My take on this is that ODMs call for amnesty is to ensure that we are all on the same page on the issue. Freed people can be re arrested but punished people cannot be unpunished. Unless your a total retard or just willingly ignorant you don't want your justice dispenced by the kenyan courts as they are presently constituted. The feeling amongst most kenyans is that this guys will not get justice. We all know that kibz and his people "purged" the judiciary to suite their goals and so on.....and just like the cobbled up gava its a stop gap measure its not starting a culture of impunity....its saying we forgave your blatant stealing of an a election forgive our boys for over reacting. Now if pnu gava refuses to forgive then why should we forgive, lets start by hanging kifucky or a full blown war and the winner is right.....we realy don't want to go that way but if that is what they want we shall oblige.


Sir Alex

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