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Monday, July 20, 2009

Respect Kenya: Kibaki Must Stay Above the Law


No country or leader auctions the priceless gift and honour of sovereignty. And Kibaki as the embodiment of Kenya must remain above the law no matter what the Rome statutes say about tribunals.

Ministers have once again confirmed the tower of Babel that they have become. They have refused to unite and lead by example instead they are leading from the rear with the singular virtue of bickering. While they all toned down towards agreeing on setting a local tribunal, Kibaki’s position must remain NONNEGOTIABLE.

After saving us from stewing ourselves in our own blood, Kibaki deserves respect and must avoid the indignity of answering to Ocampo’s melodrama at the Hague. The ICC may demand watertight declaration in offering immunity to nobody but we must unite in protecting our third president from such a shame.

Ocampo and Annan must not be allowed to re-invent themselves using Kenya as a case study. They need to know the basics and avoid being easily excitable. For their information they better know that past tense of pigs fly is a common disease ravaging the world presently. Swine flu is no epidemic.

Midnight swearing
Mutula Kilonzo must learn politics made and practised inn Kenya. Well, he may have signed some papers with the ICC Prosecutor agreeing to stamp out impunity once and for all. But he must be aware that within our shores anything on paper is as good as the wet ink. Once liquiud is dry, the memorandum and agreement naturally goes comatose. What is more, we are a living testimony.

So the cabinet can shout, wine and dine every week but they must make sure President Kibaki is comprehensively protected from scavengers like Ocampo and his sidekick Annan. They is only once centre of power in Kenya and we can only dare upset that institution at our collective national peril.

Ocampo can breathe all the coloured fires and brimstone but Kibaki as a symbol of our nationhood must retain the authority to dish CLEMENCY so that we can heal. Kibaki knows Kenya better than even Obama and must not be intimidated at whatever cost. And on that note the MPs' hostility to Special Tribunal Bill is justified in protecting our exotic sovereignty.

Kibaki is a master at delegation but he cannot be naive to delegate to Ocampo the role of wielding the axe on his own neck. Justice Gicheru should know better. He couldn’t have sworn in the president at midnight only to have the old man subjected to embarrassment by international minions like Ocampo, NEVER.

53 comments:

Anonymous said...

Taabu:)

Kibaki will be facing the Hague just like Charles Tailor

when he ordered the Police to shoot innocent kenyans!! was he embarrassed? or was he clapping chanting Mpumbavu hawa mavi yakuku

Well now I can say back to him for killing my relatives bodies riddled with bullets..
Kibaki wewe mpumbavu sana na Hague ina kuongojea...

Mwambu said...

Immunity for Kibaki is synonymous with impunity by Kibaki and the rest of his ilk. It is this untouchable cabal that has been oppressing Kenya since 1963, and turned the country into a bona fide Banana Republic.

Kibaki deserves handcuffs and a go directly to jail card.

luke said...

now i'm in a foul mood Taabu
wacha kuchokoza mtukufu

katiba yetu inasema rais ni juu ya sheria za nchi. inamanisha sii lazima afuate sheria kama mimi na wewe. na mimi si rais je wewe?

meanwhile long live draconian all powerful presidencies

papa plus said...

Very true Taabu, we can not let our president be bent over and take it from the back sans prophylactic! That is a position solely assumed by us, the wananchi! And everyone must play their position.

Anonymous said...

Which innocent people did Kibaki kill? The only people that were killed by police were murderers, looters, thieves, rapists and all manner of criminals. It doesdnt matter how many times or for how long you lie, it wont become the truth. Even Moreno knows that. Wapumbavu nyote!

Anonymous said...

ODMorons and ODMites are a sickening breed. They wanted the police band to come out and play them the tunes while they raped babies and grandmas? Did babies and grandmas steal your votes? If you are real men, why didn't you go and get Kibaki and General Ali?

With or without Hague, you try that stupidity in 2012. Try again that twisted mentality that you have a right to rape and kill others under the pretext that an election is stolen. That twisted and barbaric logic will be straightened out if you dare try it ever again. Never say you were not on notice.

If you think your vote is stolen, you know where to go, just leave your poor neighbour alone.

Anonymous said...

You make this Kibaki look like such a monster,an immovable imperial president with ministers grovelling at his feet.Isnt this the same person you've always ridiculed as a fence sitter,someone who could never make a decision even if his own life depended on it?Havent we been always reminded what a lame duck president he is?Didnt the ODM brigade at one point threaten to go and physically eject him from state house.How comes,he has now so grown in stature that a cabinet made up of 42 odd characters including some hotshot lawyers and professors cant pass anything when infront of a president who according to the many tales I have heard is too cowardly he barely leaves SH.What a contradiction!

Anonymous said...

Kibaki is going to tour Luo Nyanza as the president and Raila has asked the Luos to crap for him untill their hands bleed.

These two principal monkeys should spare the Luos. Luos have other pressing things to do including fishing and inheriting some wives.

Mwambu said...

Most of you are human rejects.

A majority of you are drags on the human race in the mode of troglodytes who are yet to evolve into fully functioning human beings. Like your brethren in the wild, you manifest the most animalistic tendencies, including, shrewdness, cunning, territoriality, vengeance, Mungiki versus vigilantes nonsense, etc.

First, you gave us your thief and demented arch tribalist, Kenyatta; a guy whose greed knew no bounds and who even stole land put-aside for the destitute Mau Mau. But every once in a while, Kenyatta who knew how to keep you, his troop of troglodytes happy, would toss you a few pieces of captured impala meat and, you his chimpanzees brethren would feel extra special and go bananas (literally)! Heck, Kenyatta, a president, even had the temerity to encourage Kikuyus that they could steal as long as they did not get caught (gasp!).

Moi was Kenyatta light; an imbecile just like your Kamau Johnstone wa Ngengi, your thieving immoral leader.

Kibaki, the second troglodyte from your area, is a conman, lazy, imbecilic liar who even denies the very existence of his second wife, some ugly Kikuyu hag, whom he shagged and produced a very ugly daughter, Winnie Wangui Kibaki, whose abition it is/was to marry an international criminal, some Armenian clown. Like father, like daughter; criminality runs in the Kibaki family blood, I guess.

What did ALL your three useless leaders have in common?

They were all above the law.

Anonymous said...

The kind of thinking that the supporters of this nonsensical post that borders on insulting the intelligence of Kenyans risk only but one thing:burning the country further.

As long as the semi-literate locals who by the way, do not need to follow insensitive blogging and biased media coverage for them to know when their rights are being trampled upon, live in the dangerous impression that the Kibaki government sanctioned a bloodbath of innocent protesters by killing them, while the freshly recruited murderous cops spoke in kibaki's tribe,they will forever see kibaki and kikuyu's as the thorn in the flesh,and you know what happens to thorns pricked out from the flesh.
The best way is for Kibaki to face trial, if need be, get acquitted, if innocent, and Many who would follow the proceedings would know his commissions or omissions and judge him thus.
otherwise, as someone who was on the ground when most of this things happened, i know that the local youth will feel like its a fight for liberation and with this psychological belief, no amount of semantics by PNU will make them any different.Kibaki must face the law and answer his case,And anyway, who said he was guilty?

Anonymous said...

Mwambu,

I agree with you 100% and I echo you:

Immunity for Mwai "pumbavu" Kibaki is synonymous with impunity by Mwai "pumbavu" Kibaki and the rest of his ilk - the Mt Kenya Mafia of John "the rattlesnake" Michuki et al. It is this untouchable, corrupt, looting and thieving cabal that has been oppressing and messing up Kenya since 1963 and eventually turning the country into a bona fide Banana Republic.

Kibaki deserves large mungiki handcuffs and then jail.

Alternatively the his Mungiki neck choppers should just make a very quick beeline for his neck, start chopping it and eventually decapitate him.

Anonymous said...

Kibaki must face the law and answer his case.

As regards the PEV that occurred at the beginning of last year 2008, Kibaki is the MAIN SUSPECT as he STOLE the elections, in broad daylight, that then triggered the violence.

KIBAKI MUST FACE JUSTICE FOR HIS SINS OF OMMISSION AND COMMISSION

Anonymous said...

Who came up with this myopic reasoning that man was made for the constitution? the constitution was made for man, and those who try and hide behind the crap about 'how unconstitutional" it would be, are simply deniers of the present.

in today's world...presidents are impeached, taken to court, tried, jailed etc. Kenya should not be some heaven for those who ascend to presidency..

Fact: Kibaki was a sitting president when his cops killed and raped.Raila was a civilian. Kibaki had the intelligence at his disposal, the security apparatus and the option to navigate the entire scenario peacefully..did he?

If, as some nugget-heads here try to reason, Those protesting were looters and rapists.. since when was Kenyan cops allowed to be the judge,jury and executioner?just because they kill with impunity, does not mean its legal.

Why didn't they use other legal ways to deal with riots, as accepted in international law?
Finally, its not true that the police were killing looters and murderous, the looting and killing happened after the police started shooting civilians protesting, and the reason many of us support the Hague, is because we know that its only unbiased ,thorough investigation that will prove that in rift valley and nyanza, cops killed civilians with abandon and that frustrated civilians reacted in spontaneity against the atrocities. After the Hague starts proceedings, many will be shocked at what happened..why do you think PNU want kibaki immune from prosecution?

M-Pesa said...

The problem with narrow minded Kenyans is that every discussion must take a tribal or political party dimension. How sad, never mind.

I have banged here many times the fact that we have killers and murderers in cabinet, clad in Saville Row Gucci suits and Rolex watches, from different parties and communities. I was pleased to read Gaitho's commentary today and he bangs home the same point, that "murderers in government" are simply trying to shield each other from justice and that's why they will not reach any consensus.

As a matter of fact, the tarnished cabinet has called for the 3rd meeting next week for deliberations on Hague option but just watch, they won't agree on anything. They won't even agree to disagree.. He he he he...confused monos! I hope Ocampo is carefully watching the circus being played by this bunch of clowns.

It's up to Ocampo and other bloodhounds to sniff and eject these killers and murderers out of this country and whisk them to The Hague so that they will not be anywhere near here when 2012 comes!

Anonymous said...

You think these leaders worry?
I saw Uhuru Kenyatta yesterday shopping at London Oxford Street with his two children looking relax and very casual!

Anonymous said...

As usual, emotional ODMorons thrashing around like headless chicken (or fish?) saying many things that matter NOT. I will help bring some clarity to your muddled minds.

It is quite evident that whether or not Emilio's name is in the envelope, he will have to answer many questions given that ethnic cleansing of Kikuyus occured under his watch. There are no immunity clauses at the ICC. There is very little that Emilio can do to change this. Ditto for a local tribunal constructed to international standards, to which he would still be called to account, as the one in charge when Kikuyus were brutally cleansed. No two ways about that. Everthing else is just self-entertainment, masturbation and so on.

Cant you guys see this?

When a policeman's life is in danger, he/she is permitted to do all that pertains to protecting himself. When faced attack by a menacing panga, arrow/spear, from a deranged 'haki-yetu' hooligan or warrior the policemen is well in line to act to defend his own life. The murderers, looters, rapists etc that the police sought to pacify were well armed with machetes, arrows/spears, and had turned these on the policemen when they were being apprehended. What were the police to do? Even Moreno would not fail to see where justice lies in such a situation. But then, we'll wait and see.....

Anonymous said...

Only Kamba people who can lead Kenya into her promised land!

Anonymous said...

Dear Brother Kalonzo,

It is up to you, Our Son Kalonzo, to seize the moment and lead your people across River Jordan. Dear Brother Steve, we are ready. We are an army of 3.5 million votes waiting to shake the walls and gates of Jericho. The voices of those inside the city wail and shake like palm leaves at the sound of your assembled army. Oh, Brother, call us into action, let us silence the iniquities of rapes and murders with our votes. With our votes, let us wipe the tears from the faces of the IDPs. The time has come for you, The People's Servant, to blow the trumpet.

Anonymous said...

These Kikuyus are everywhere. On my visit home I saw two in Homabay with mobile diesel-operated freezers trying to dominate the fish industry. Even here in KK they have invaded like rats.

Anonymous said...

There's a very successful Kikuyu dentist in Iceland too.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:05 AM,

Very good question/observation:

"why do you think PNU want kibaki immune from prosecution?"

Answer: For Mwai "pumbavu" Kibaki to ESCAPE JUSTICE and get away with IMPUNITY. That is the reason.

Deep in their hearts, these panua mongrels know that Mwai "pumbavu" Kibaki did not win the elections of Dec 2007; that he STOLE them.

PNU is seeking immunity so as to enable Mwai "pumbavu" Kibaki avoid facing justice for his THEFT of the elections and the subsequent aftermath.

Anonymous said...

At the end of the day it is easier said than done for Kibaki to do what you are suggesting.

Provided we have certain people dismissing the idea of a tribunal, complying by the rome statute or facing sanctions will become the order of the day.

M-Pesa said...

Anon at 1.28

You have a pornographic mind!

Anonymous said...

I wouldnt risk describing your mind, not least because your avatar sports a child soldier.

Kimi Raikkonen said...

Anon @ 3.03am: There are now even Kyuks selling snow to eskimos in Canada.

Taabu, it looks like there are very fast moving political developments in the offing as a result of Ocampo. It seems that since Ruto is determined to go the Hague route, and in the process very likely implicate both Kibaki and Raila, the two seem to have decided to come together again in a revived NARC 2009 edition. The so called 'development' tour of Nyanza by Kibaki this weekend, and which is very uncharacteristically but enthuthiastically being promoted by Raila, looks more to me like a political alliance in the making by convergent political interests of both Raila and Kibaki who will definitely be in the crosshairs of Ocampo if it comes to that.
In the process, this anti-Hague alliance will be the added bonus of bringing the Luo and Kikuyu together to make a Raila Presidency in 2012 a foregone conclusion, with Uhuru a very likely PM, him being Kibaki's preferred heir. The immediate alliance will hence very effectively neuter Ocampo as he will be unlikely to arrest the 2 most powerful men in Kenya and whose coming together in a genuine political marriage (unlike the current GCG) will receive the complete support of the US Govt which will be very pleased with a stable Govt. Ocampo will quietly be told to back off. The biggest political loser in all this will be Ruto who will be blamed for effectively isolating the Kalenjin if the 2 most influential tribal voting blocks come together. A Luo/Kikuyu alliance has always had a very intimidating power over Kenya and that was the reason Moi worked day and night to divide them. I know many will ask how a Kyuk can vote for Raila but past mutual hatreds must be forgotten in order to move on. In any case, Raila has proved since coming to power to be just like any other Kyuk politician. He is not a radical and/or a really extraordinary revolutionary as previously perceived, just another businessman, and for Kyuks, that is enough.

Taabu said...

Very fertile imagination you have. And given the many strands of political hypotheses you have been sprinkling of late am not surprised.

Your take leaves me wondering why all the painful obsession with this monster of tribal alliance, can't we think outside the box? And please don't bore me with that time tested reality check.

But again politicians make strange bedfellows. Only thing is for sure MK did Kenya in and we will never be the same again. If KK alliance is too hot to hold what else can? The gulf is too wide and still widening. Only time will tell. Anything is possible though (politically).

Anonymous said...

What is up with all the abuse on this blog? Is there at any point constructive debate?

Anonymous said...

I am compelled to agree with Taabu. Though not only is the imagination fertile, it is wild as well. While Ruto likely has something on Raila, it is unclear what he would have on Kibaki that is not already known by nursery school kids and zombies.

That Kibaki and Raila have decided to go to Luo Nyanza together does not symbolize a renewed courtship (forced by Ocampo) intended to improve current intercourse and to lay the foundations of a 2012 political alliance.

It instead comes from pressure on the two principles from international actors, for them to kick start the process of national reconciliation and healing, which they should have embarked on a year earlier. You will see that both Kibaki and Raila will shortly make joint tours of the rift, the coast, western and parts of nairobi and they will include the relevant politicians (Ruto included) in this effort.

Anonymous said...

None is above the Law,only God is, and the last time i looked at Kibaki he is a man just like me!!
Kibaki if mentioned adversely should be shipped to the Hague a quickly as possible and pay for his sins,Millions of Kenyans suffered,lost lives,limbs and property because this man and his cohorts stole the elections and for this HE MUST PAY!!

Anonymous said...

Taabu,

Don't dismiss a Luo/Kikuyu alliance. Luos have worked with Kikuyus before, and Luos despite the occassional animosity have never shed Kikuyu blood. The Kalenjins have had a history of an uneaseness, and as you know, in 2008, they attacked (killed and raped) the most innocent and vulnerable of Kikuyu population - that included burning women and children in a church. Contrast that with the Luos in Kisumu, they burned Kikuyu businesses but didn't go about killing enmass (any killing was isolated). It is slowly dawning on the Kikuyus that Raila is simply after power and not after distroying the Kikuyus and their businesses the way Moi did for 24 years.

Anonymous said...

I for one, am happy. These politicians have had it their way for a long time. Hi sio MacDonald! Greasing palms and threatening people when things dont go their way. Alot of innocent people lost their lives and its about time someone is questioned and held accountable.You have turned our country into a toilet, anyone can shit in it! Let our citizens amka, msihogwe. Our leaders need to prove they are worthy of their offices!

Anonymous said...

Yes, Raila can slowly be acceptable to Kikuyus but he needs to change the tact. He should go about seeking their support quietly, Kikuyus don't like drama. Also, he should go through the right people, not the Njonjos and Kugurus of Kikuyuland.

Anonymous said...

I see little to no advantage to the Kikuyus in forming a political alliance with the Jaruo. The more logical accomodation is with the Kalenjin and the Maasai.

Anonymous said...

Kimi Raikooooo,

I can never vote Raila and thats a NEVER!!

Anonymous said...

I just watched a docu on the political mess in Senegal, on what happened in their 2007 elections. The Senegalese are suffering becoz of their leaders. The youth have no jobos, they are leaving the country in droves, wengi drowning in the process of trying to smuggle themselves in the European countries. Poverty is so rampant and no freedom of expression. And what happened they ended up re-electing the same president back in office, kila mtu is still flabbergasted how this happened. When will our continent learn?! These so called 'leaders' work for their own interests, contributing to the problem instead of the solution. Kenya is not the same. Nai sasa is famous for robbery. Uchafu tele, electircity bado taabu, maji ndio hivyo. We used to be a model to be emulated, sasa wapi!It should satrt with us, the odinary mwananchi, enuff said. When we stop accepting that this is the norm. To let a person know, when he/she enters that office, we will track EVERYTHING they do. That we will expect progress and accountability. If they dont prove themselves, out they go! Not to accept bribes, in the long run, we all suffer.

Anonymous said...

"Yes, Raila can slowly be acceptable to Kikuyus"

No such luck. Ruto would be more acceptable, faster. There is a direct economic interest that ties the two together. I dont see what the Jaruos have to offer (except fish on M7s mijingo). They are even less in number than the Kales!

Anonymous said...

Kimi,
Are you saying you will vote Raila come 2012?
Truly the wonders of this world never cease to to amaze me!

You vote for raila but don't come here to tell us your futile fantasies.
Raila is a NO NO!

Anonymous said...

The atmosphere is thick with discourses whether perpetrators of heinous activities during the bungled 2007 elections should be tried locally or The Hague. Busy bodies are spending sleepless nights putting spin or peddling rumours with conspiracy theories of whose names are in the envelope or not. These behaviour begs the level of sanity we have in our society, majority taking pride on their prowess on interpretation of law and what it will leads us to. Sitting in my house am filled with sour and bitter feeling in my mouth whether this is what we need when this country needs reflection towards building cohesion not heightening tension.
The people who were involved and participated in these atrocities should be tried, approached objectively not opening sore wounds with utmost emotional intelligence. And to the leaders, it is high time that they realised that whipping emotions from their tribal back yard will not help this country either, but push us to the abyss. This country is larger than us and history will judge us for pushing the country back to dark ages through the single tunnel vision throttle we are stepping on. Let us be reminded that this is a time bomb that may trigger worse off things come 2012 if we fail to tread carefully.
The synergy flowing in our midst regarding this matter and how it exuberates, should be put to positive use on how to plan and deliver services for Wanjiku at this hard economic times , who needs support :-
1. To live peacefully with the neighbours
2. To Plant, manage, harvest , market tin order to sell the produce to feed the family
3. Accessible roads and improve existing infrastructure for all
4. Reduction of divide between the have and have not , with all treated equally by the judiciary system, police and other service providers
5. Access to health , supporting interventions for common and preventable ailments plaguing the society
6. Bottoms up approach in planning of services , inclusively where the voice of the down trodden are listened to
7. Healthy and thriving community where majority have access to Primary Health Care, balanced diet.
8. With systems that make leaders open to scrutiny, where rampant abuse of office is curtailed.

Anonymous said...

Wacha ujinga bwana.

Kenya is a rotting place because of Kibaki and the killers before him.

For how long do you want this thieving game to go on? Do you want a mafia state, where people kill one another and no one takes action?

If you are able to impregnate a woman, preach for a non-corrupt state. Your children and their children will one day suffer, simply because you never poisoned these rats.

These rodents are the cause of Aids, hunger, mungiki, Anglo-Leas, Grand-regency, Goldenberg. Do away with them and free Kenya from misery.

Kimi Raikkonen said...

Taabu, all politics is about alliances. In Kenya, they just happen to be tribal, while in the US, they are racial! What is so strange about that? The difference is that it is not a life and death matter in the US.
I may have a vivid imagination, but what i hypothesised in my earlier posting is just realpolitik and what is being spoken of in the grapevine. Maybe you are yet to hear of it but i guarantee you by this weekend, utaniambia.
What many don't realise is that of all alliances Luos and Kikuyus can form, an alliance between the two is almost always the most potent. NARC 2002 was at its core a Luo/Kikuyu alliance as they not only provided numbers just by themselves, but provided the bulk of the intellectual and economic muscle. We all know that the two felt out thereafter culminating in the 2007/2008 chaos. The more important lesson of 2002 election success is that Luo/Kikuyu on the same side without antagonism translates to stability and progress for Kenya, that is a fact.
On the other hand, an alliance with the Kalenjin for either will not work. For the Luo, the Kalenjin are too unpredictable and rebellious while for the Kikuyu, the much anticipated KK alliance is dead in the water precisely because Ruto is now damaged goods and there is unlikely to be a leader to unite them as before anytime soon. An alliance with Kalonzo alone would be strong but unstable.
I think it is time to put down the burden of mutual hatreds between Luo and Kikuyu and there is no better way than to support Raila as the next President. This would be a Govt underwritten by the Obama(US) adminstration and in that regard, i doubt that Raila would be in a position to do anything to undermine that stability by antagonising Kikuyus. Like any good businessmen, Kikuyus more than anything want predictability about the future, and if supporting Raila will do it, then so be it. In any case, the opportunities for anti-Kikuyu mischief will be virtually nil. That will be guaranteed before handing over power.

Anonymous said...

I never thought I'd live to hear this. Raila predictable? How soon do we forget recent history? Kikuyus will trust Raila at their own peril. Obama can hardly weigh in, after all he contributed to Raila's campaign, which was founded and advanced on anti-kikuyuism. If anyone has at heart the interests of the poor, land strapped Kikuyu, they would be reaching out to the Kales and rebuilding that broken relationship.

Mwarang'ethe said...

Kimi wrote that:

Like any good businessmen, Kikuyus more than anything want predictability about the future, and if supporting Raila will do it, then so be it. In any case, the opportunities for anti-Kikuyu mischief will be virtually nil. That will be guaranteed before handing over power.

Our views:

Where did the Kikuyu's/Gema get this idea that, Raila is after Kikuyu's?

He has never been, and there4, this phobia against RO is misguided in our view.

Mwarang'ethe said...

Anonymous said...

If anyone has at heart the interests of the poor, land strapped Kikuyu, they would be reaching out to the Kales and rebuilding that broken relationship.

Our views:

Wrong idea.

An alliance with Kales will not help land strapped Kikuyu's. What we need is declaration of all Kenyan land as public asset.

Thereafter, u lease it, and develop whatever u wanna develop while paying land tax on the land's value increament to the state.

Once all land is taken as pblic asset, u will be free to lease land from the state anywhere in Kenya. At the same time, we will raise a lot of tax from land value tax. This will in turn allow us to reduce, or even eliminate income/labour tax and capital tax.

Victor said...

mwarang'ethe

no need to get sucked into that alliance spin

if you've been following, we've had alliance with kalenjin, luo, luhya, bantu, coastals etc.

basically an alliance with the everybody depending on who is talking what at what point in time. i.e there are some people very keen on presenting themselves as the focal point from which everything else must orbit around.

highly delusional i think

Anonymous said...

Mwarangethe:

Your idea is even wronger. Just take a ride to Ethiopia and educate yourself on the insecurities (and dampening of local incentives & investments) that state ownership of land has entailed. To its credit though, the Ethiopian state had better sense than levy a land tax on the rural poor whose ag/livestock production efforts are beset by numerous risks.

But I restrain from throwing the baby out with the bath water and see the value of a comprehensive land redistribution program and the heavy taxation of unutilized land.

I also agree with Victor that we can try and do better than premise political alliances on ethnicity. Moi keeps warning us about it. But then it would be helpful to know what the alternatives in Kenya might be right now, and to head in that direction.

Mwambu said...

Stupid tribal alliances are the bane of Kenya whether a mooted Luo-Kikuyu alliance or a Kikuyu-Luo alliance. As dumb an idea as the authors who wrote them.

I, Mwambu, will NEVER EVER susbcribe to ANY tribal alliance, because it is what has brought us into the mess our country finds itself in.

If Odinga enters into this stupidly conceived and backward tribal alliance with Kibaki, because he wants to have a supposed Luo-Kikuyu alliance, he will be just another retarded tribal Kenyan politician, in my opinion.


After all, Kenya is not just a Luo-Kikuyu affair. I will give Raila as much hell as I currently give the useless tribal Kibaki.

Mwarang'ethe said...

Anonymous said...
Mwarangethe:

Your idea is even wronger. Just take a ride to Ethiopia and educate yourself on the insecurities (and dampening of local incentives & investments) that state ownership of land has entailed. To its credit though, the Ethiopian state had better sense than levy a land tax on the rural poor whose ag/livestock production efforts are beset by numerous risks.

Oou response:

Hong Kong is perhaps the best modern example of the successful implementation of a high LVT.

The Hong Kong government generates more than 35% of its revenue from land taxes.[37] Because of this, they can keep their other taxes rates low or non-existent and still generate a budget surplus.

Imagine, if we get 35% of our tax from land, what would happen. We would stop piling debts which we cannot afford to pay, and or rreduce income and capital tax for the benefit of anyone who wakes up to work.

Also, Singapore has had a very successful state ownership of land.

Also, see this: Land Lines: September 1999, Volume 11, Number 5
Mexicali: A Success Story of Property Tax Reform (Land Lines Article) at http://www.lincolninst.edu/pubs/PubDetail.aspx?pubid=334.

See also, The Ultimate Tax Reform: Public Revenue from Land Rent
Fred E. Foldvary by CSI policy study.

See also, Natural Resources Taxation and Regulation by Laurence S. Moss.

See also, The POWER in the LAND, unemployment, the prfits crisis and the land speculator by Fred Harrison.

U mau also see this book: WHO OWNS BRITAIN by Kevin Cahill. U will get a shock of your lifetime cos what u read in this book, is exactly what we have in Kenya.

In short, if u are interested in materials dealing with land tax, get in touch and we can supply a lot of very instructive materials on this issue.

Anonymous said...

Idiots sitting in a cabinet, getting overpaid, sipping on tea whilst munching biscuits, cannot even decide whether to have a local tribunal and what it would constitute.

Once again, what a bunch of idiots, no wonder Kenya was, is and will always be a banana republic, run by imbeciles.

But who do we lay the blame on?
The stupid tribalists that call themselves Kenyans. Thinking that electing these archaic leaders, who incite neighbor against neighbor, in the thick of the rigged election battles will have a trickle down effect to their lot in life.

What a bunch of morons, the so-called "educated/learned" Kenyans are no better, the propagate this bigotry.

Kenyans needs a serious crisis, God-forbid, that can unite Kenyans against a common threat, against a common enemy from beyond its borders, because we as Kenyans are so myopic that we pretend to not know who the enemy is from within.

Pumbavu mavi ya kuku!

Anonymous said...

Mwarangethe:
I repeat my objection: where is the logic in taxing people who cannot even afford to feed and clothe themselves? People whose source of sustenance from the land is precarious and increasingly challenged from different kinds of shocks, including climatic ones?
There are many books and journal articles on land taxation, that is hardly the point. The point is the feasibility of such a program for a certain category of actors that ill compare with income levels in Britain and HongKong. But I guess, no harm in squeezing blood out of a stone if you can. But I do understand that broad systems and processes can travel.

How is land owned in Hong Kong and Britain? I will not repeat my thoughts on land ownership and security of investments. I figure there's a lot to learn also from the city of Singapore's experiences in land taxation.

Mwarang'ethe said...

Anonymous wrote:

There are many books and journal articles on land taxation, that is hardly the point. The point is the feasibility of such a program for a certain category of actors that ill compare with income levels in Britain and HongKong. But I guess, no harm in squeezing blood out of a stone if you can. But I do understand that broad systems and processes can travel.

Our response:

Exactly.

Thats why you need to read further and u see how countries like Denmark, Singapore, Hong Kong implement it.

U can also read how California implemented this tax, untill the other day when they curbed it in favour of taxing labour and consumption. The effect of this are clear now. California is bankrupt.

Anonymous said...

Mwarangethe:
Since you have read on how Singapore, Denmark, and other countries that you name, have structured their land taxation programs and find them relevant and valuable for us, would you be so kind to distil just a couple of elemenst from their porgrams that can be adapted to Kenya? I am particularly interested in how you would adapt this to taxing a large proportion of the population that lives on close to 2 dollars per day. What would the elements of such a program look like, what would be rates of taxation and how would the rural poor raise the funds to meet it. I hope you understand this question.

California is NOT bankrupt because they stopped implementing a property tax. Are there no bounds to the things you can credibly claim?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
You think these leaders worry?
I saw Uhuru Kenyatta yesterday shopping at London Oxford Street with his two children looking relax and very casual!

7/21/09 1:18 AM

I wonder what you were doing when you saw him?? what even got you to that city anyway??

Anonymous said...

Neither did kibaki nor Raila did kill anyone.It's some knuckle heads who were expecting a rent free society and killing all the wildlife replacing them with wildhumans...the police had to do their job with or without the president to protect the people.

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