Forgive me for being naive, but I thought Kenya was a sovereign nation. After years of white rule, our founding fathers fought hard, shed a lot of blood and did away with certain comforts,whatever little they had, so that they'd replace white rule with black rule in Kenya. In 1963 President Jomo Kenyatta and his colleagues achieved that feat for us all. Every year we come together to celebrate the turn of events that placed us squarely in charge of our destiny...for better for worse.
At this point, we are going through one of the most challenging times in Kenya. With the Waki Report causing increasing anxiety in the nation, there have been loud calls by sober and thoughtful Kenyans to turn over our destiny and place it in the hands of the ICC. Just like the IMF and the World Bank, which have perfected the art of control of Africa's emerging economies and the Continent's people, the ICC is now being courted to do what the Westerners think the dumb Africans can't do for themselves.
And we are cheering!
I've always said we need homegrown solutions to our problems. We need solutions that are a reflection of our troubled political history, that respect our dignity as people with brains, and places us in equal footing with out Western brothers. Can anybody look me in the eye and tell me that the judge at the ICC will better accomplish this than our own judges? What makes him more qualified than our guys here? Is it the color of his skin?
Once again I'm aware of the unpopularity of what I'm saying here, but I reject this headlong plunge in the direction of placing the destiny of my nation in the hands of foreigners. Let me explain. Are we now happy that yesterday nearly twenty five ambassadors took to the hills to tell our leaders how to run Kenya? Are we excited that some Western security officials may jet in here to arrest our native sons? Where is our self-respect?
No, I don't condone what our leaders did. I don't condone the fact the elections were stolen, that the ECK is still playing games, that the constitution has not been brought in compliance with the prevailing realities in Kenya, that the question of land distribution is not being handled. But even in the face of all that, I can't surrender my dignity by calling on foreigners to help me figure out justice in my own land. I don't pretend to have the answers, but I know that if we soberly put our minds to it, we can come up with mutually acceptable ways to handle Waki and the future.
I commend the Cabinet for going easy on this matter yesterday. I may not see eye to eye with President Kibaki and all the men who planned the murder of Kenyans, but I must stand by my President to defend the right of this nation in deciding what's best for Kenya. If we carry out a nonpartisan investigation and find out which people actually funded and abetted the violence, let's crucify those people right here. That's what Independence means, folks.
Uhuru.
Jamhuri.
Tell me where I'm going wrong, my fellow countrymen.
Let the ambassadors shut up. Let's figure out how we can best handle this matter as Kenyans.
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homegrown solutions is exactly what has brought us to this state of pathetic affairs in our country.
ReplyDeleteunfortunately poverty and greed has blinded blinded kenyans from thinking rationaly and by insisting on the hague we are simply calling for a neutral objective non-partisan solution.
kenyans are not united afterall, what is there to unite us?there's 42 tribes/subtribes and all we have is a common border, a common flag and a common currency thats it.and somebody please dont tell me kiswahili or english is a common language because if you go upcountry people barely speak it, in the city too for that matter.
Its very ok for Sam Okello to reason the way he does but it also shows how short a memory he has.Let me remind him that soon after the 2007 elections,Molasses whom he idolizes and ODM as a whole flatly rejected the idea of contesting the outcome in court arguing that they had no faith in the Kenyan judiciary.Now pray let me ask you Mr Okello,what has changed between now and then for all of us to suddenly have so much trust in our judiciary?Dont we have the same judges as then?Dont we have the same smiling Amos as the AG?He who never in his glittering career saw a crime commited by our so called leaders worth prosecuting!So where does this newly found confidence in our institutions come from?Remember the Akiwumi report?Didnt it also mention names and what happened afterwards?Precisely NOTHING!
ReplyDeleteThe two anons above,
ReplyDeleteDo you think the legal systems in Europe or the United States got to be where it is today in one day? These things take time. Look, we have to give Kenya time to grow. We are still a very young nation, but we have to learn to walk, then we'll know how to run. But if every time we falter we have to run to the West for help, we'll never even learn to walk in a hurry.
And you know what, the Westerners love it when you kneel for help every time. It makes them feel mighty good. Anf it proves the theories of the likes of Wtason right...that the black man is inferior to you know who.
Get a grip, Kenyans. We must do this Waki thing on our own...or never bother to tell anybody you are independent. It just might be that those ambassadors who always lecture us on governance know we are actually dependent, not independent.
I wonder what Kenyatta and our freedom fighters thing. Did those guys have wisdom than we have? Or is it just that they knew those Westerners better than most of us do today?
Sam,
ReplyDeletewe told you to go away,what are you still doing here. or is it a prove you are a dumb? we don't want your help. you need help!
a few months ago, the international community 'had every right to intervene because kenya is a member of a global community' Musalia Mudavadi
ReplyDeletetoday, Okello tells them to shut up because they have asked for abunch of ODM and PNU warlords to be held accountable for crimes aganist Humanity
Flip Flop. unprincipled wimps. ODM makes me want to retch.
As soon as I read the first line, I instantly knew who penned this lackadaisical trite.
ReplyDeleteAll of a sudden, Sam is seemingly scared, as if on the lam.
Sam fyi; The culture of unabashed impunity will only be expunged from society once the perpetrators know that they are not above the law, home or abroad, and that there is no safe place to hide. More so in Kenya. This has to start from the top, Kabuga included, all the way down to the common 'Kaunda Street ni yetu' gangsters
Sam,
ReplyDeleteAfter years of white rule, our founding fathers fought hard, shed a lot of blood and did away with certain comforts,whatever little they had, so that they'd replace white rule with black rule in Kenya
The founding fathers merely replaced the white oppressor with a black one. That is how come we are in this mess.
Can anybody look me in the eye and tell me that the judge at the ICC will better accomplish this than our own judges? What makes him more qualified than our guys here? Is it the color of his skin?
Can you look me in the eye and tell me justice is served in Kenyan courts?
ICC is now being courted to do what the Westerners think the dumb Africans can't do for themselves
The first people to be tried in the ICC were from former Yugoslavia. We have to let go of this victim mentality and solve problems the easiest way.
I've always said we need homegrown solutions to our problems. We need solutions that are a reflection of our troubled political history
Our troubled political history has started killing us. How long are we supposed to wait?
Murderers are murderers. If we are incapable of trying them here, let us take them to the Hague!
Sam ukello,
ReplyDeleteUpende ama usipende Hague is a MUST.
Last week you tried religion that did not work now he has changed rhetorics to race ati black man is blah blah.
You don't get it, do you mr. okello?
Sam said:
ReplyDelete....Can anybody look me in the eye and tell me that the judge at the ICC will better accomplish this than our own judges? What makes him more qualified than our guys here? Is it the color of his skin?....
Before you ask anybody to look at you in the eye please PLACE YOURSELF BEFORE TAKE A HUGE MIRROR. You and I know it that you brand of patriotism smacks of scoundrels only mothed when cornered.
There is NO FREE LUNCH and the same envoys and international you deride at least saved Kenyan from herself. You woe it to them at least you have Kenya to speak about. Just cut teh chase Bw Okelo and stop the doublespeak.
Impunity can only be eradicated with PAINFUL surgery. All else amounts to bandaging and with that we are destine to die from SEPTIC SHOCK.
You speak of Kenya being a young country compared to the west. Well, you convinientl;y chose to ignore Botswana next door. Yours is typical Kenyan LOW BAR. We compare Kibaki with Moi ignoring the fact that we wanted him undo the Moi damage and take us to the MOON where we belong. But alas apologists of mediocrity comes in all shapes and shades.
So you think you are more Kenyan than Waki? FYI Waki know a thing about the same judiciary you wax lyrical that you don't. It is populated by legal scoundrels for higher and dancing to partican music. Nothing has changed and you are cleverly engaging us in a charade by drumming hollow patriotism.
The Hague option has acheived the overwhelming support because in it we see FAIRNESS and IMPATIALITY. No clemency as the local tribual is destined to dispense.
Bw Okello, please clear the mist and see what isinfornt of you devoid of EXPEDIENCY. We don't have to take 100 years to be civilized ad only respect to the rule of law seperates us from the bushmen and animals.
Spare us the surmon on patriotism and FYI the real independence heroes were shortcharged as the homeguards rulled the roost. We must reclaim Kenya from the hands of FRAUDSTERS masquarading as leaders NOW.
Sam,
ReplyDeleteCan you see you make us sick here. despite you living in the west you are primitive primitive bushman with a lower mentality than a child?
A killer is a killer and nowhere in this world a killer is allowed to go free.
You make me want to through up. sicko you are!!
Sam,
ReplyDeleteYour post is not only racist but also exposes your ignorance in the history of this nation. (no pun intended).
You say "Can anybody look me in the eye and tell me that the judge at the ICC will better accomplish this than our own judges?" I say; Plenty. You seem to be the only who does not know that the Kenyan judiciary is in reality an extension of the executive. The Justice Ministry through the AGs has played with our intelligence for too long. Can you tell me why the Kenyan courts have never landed a convicition in two decade old Goldenberg scandal? Or why it has never convicted any suspect in the equally decades old Ouko, Mbai, JM and Pinto murders? To be more specific, what conclusive action has ever been taken on the numerous commissions and judicial commissions of enquiry since independence despite their colossal cost to the tax payer?
You ask; What makes him more qualified than our guys here? Surely Sam, it is not a question of qualification, but rather a question of integrity, fairness and justice - some very rare deliverables in Kenyan courts. Kenyan judges have proven time and time again that they cannot pass ANY judgment against the powers that be. The garvity of the PEV crimes and the names we have seen mentioned warrants the most independent court to try these cases. In any case Sam, Waki suggested a local tribunal, failing which the ICC takes over. So the choice is all ours!
Your ask; Is it the color of his skin? I say this is where you manifest your racist syndrome.
You say; Once again I'm aware of the unpopularity of what I'm saying here, but I reject this headlong plunge in the direction of placing the destiny of my nation in the hands of foreigners. Let me explain. Are we now happy that yesterday nearly twenty five ambassadors took to the hills to tell our leaders how to run Kenya? Are we excited that some Western security officials may jet in here to arrest our native sons? Where is our self-respect? I say; The ICC is a international court of justice that was formed under the auspices of the international community of nations (read - United nations) of which Kenya is a member. Kenya is also a signatory to the Geneva and Rome conventions. Please google these to get a little understanding of what they mean.
Incidentally, the Waki Commission of CIPEV, that you are trying to trash here was itself a creation of the Kofi Anan mediated peace talks that brought us the grand coalition government. The same talks were sanctioned by AU and UN - both of which Kenya is a member. The chain is long and very legitimate!
You say; If you consider all these factors, you cannot turn and start saying that we are handing our destiny to foreigners.
commend the Cabinet for going easy on this matter yesterday. I may not see eye to eye with President Kibaki and all the men who planned the murder of Kenyans, but I must stand by my President to defend the right of this nation in deciding what's best for Kenya. I say; Unless I read a different newspaper; the cabinet failed to discuss the matter because it was not part of the agenda. Who sets the agenda for cabinet and why did he/she omit this important assignment? It is the Secretary to the cabinet who prepares the agenda, under the direction of the president himself. it seems to me, rather than cause local political upheavals, president Kibaki and PM Raila may have decided to let destiny take care of Waki's recommendations. Destiny in this case is ICC. Because of short sightedness, some politicians are unwittingly jumping from the frying pan and into the fire! I also sense some contradiction in you claiming not to be seeing eye to eye with Kibaki on this, and yet this is a roadmap that was signed into law by Kibaki himself.
Sam, as a man who lives and votes in Kenya, I will offer you some free advise. Kindly come and stay with us here in Kenya so you can empathise with those of us who had state sponsored violence mercilessly meted out on them and their families. Several thousand died in 2007, 2002, 1997, 1992, and some of us are lucky to be alive, dreading the day the next elections will be around the corner so that a fresh round of violence, arson and rape can start again because we are the so called sovereign country!!!
Sam, you are the one who is racist.
ReplyDeleteIn this world we depend on each other, black, white, chinese et al.
Drop your fake patriotism and you will see clearly. you are so shallow and your all posts expose your ignorance and stupity at the highest level.
Sam asked "Tell me where I'm going wrong, my fellow countrymen"
ReplyDeleteEverywhere! You are wrong in all accounts. First, you think kenyans are as stupid as you are. second, you fail to understand a murderer is a murderer, third, the only solution for Kenya is to put an end to impunity, fourth, is your fear of unkwown. Last you don't think straight. you have a twisted logic way of reasoning which makes you a pervert!
Paging Dr. Morinho!
ReplyDeleteIt seems the tyrannical majority on Kumekucha have coalesced around a solution they think will end impunity. That is fine.
But doctor, they now mercilessly and intolerantly vilify those well-intentioned patriots who have changed their minds and positions due to concern for peacable, longer-lasting solutions that have nothing to do with revenge. There is a level of distress on both sides as you can see the emotion and affront in today's postings.
How do you advise?
kenya is not yet an independent republic in terms of identity, self-rule, economy, political and social maturity etc. Kenya is still a neo-colonial property of some three european nations, where the subjects still speak english, struggle to be like little europeans and all roads lead to the former colonial village: nairobi.
ReplyDeleteanon@2:56 AM
lol! does unpcountry = central province and nyanza province? cause these are the areas where there is such an overly great resistance toward the national language.
yet african people from uganda. rwanda, burundi, democratic republic of congo, somali, and tanzania have become experts in the language.
mental colonialism has forced many upcountry people to have a great respect for the english language at the expense of their own "native" languages as well as the national language.
Bw.Sam Okello, can you look me in the eye and tell me truthfully you do not want to join the Redykulass group?
ReplyDeletePhil,
ReplyDeleteC'mom, man, you know I'm not racist. I'm a very sweet guy. All I'm doing is telling Kenyans to be proud of ourselves. It's only been forty five years and look at how far we've come. If anybody out there truly believes that the ICC and those other world bodies are looking out for you, good luck. What I know for sure is that the journey to perfect Kenya will be travelled and the destination reached by Kenyans. Folks, this nation belongs to us, let's work to perfect it.
Incidentally, I enjoy the name calling a lot. Makes me sense that I'm getting through to some guys out there. I wish they had a better way to express their opinions, but I'm ready to take a little verbal spitum if that's the best some of the anons have to offer.
This bus carries a lot of passengers.
All I'm doing is telling Kenyans to be proud of ourselves
ReplyDeleteAre you asking us to be proud that over 1000 people died? Look, maybe i have a problem but i totally fail to see the logic in your argument.
Like Phil said, the ICC is an international court. It has tried criminals from the former Yugoslavia. Lets take these killers there!
It's funny that until now more than 40yrs later, some people still trust our systems (with the same guys) to provide justice. Kwani what do you have to see and/or go through to see that these guys will milk you till your dead and they will feel nothing? Then when they are done give the country to the dogs who don't need it?
ReplyDeleteSam, sio kwa ubaya.
I need Kenya and that is the reason why am for Hague coz once these guys are there their political dreams are over ... but above all I will never get to see them again. Which means we will have some new guys ... and this time they must be people who will be there for the people.
Would help to temper expectations with a healthy dose of common sense.
ReplyDeleteKwani those left behind are... Jesus of Nazareth?
Joe,
ReplyDeleteYou are right. The ICC is an international court. Have you ever wondered, though, why the United States is not a signatory? And have you ever wondered how Rennerberger can want the sons of Kenya tried in a court his country does not recognize? Go figure. But here we are pleading with the ICC to try our sons. I hope the veil will drop from your eyes so you can see this for what it is.
I know neo-colonialism when I see it.
I will try my very best to comment on this issue unbiased. It's not easy for me either; emotions are already running very high as I write this. It is probably one of the most highly emotionally charged aspect of psychology and one of the hardest part for many psychologists to deal with.
ReplyDeleteIt's a complete travesty that some people like Sam Okello continue to show idiocy and ignorance in this matter.
First, let's get the facts right. There is a huge difference between Revenge and Retributive justice.
According to many psychologists Revenge is a primitive sense of the just. And on the other hand Retributive justice is a theory of justice that considers that proportionate punishment is a morally acceptable response to crime, with an eye to the satisfaction and psychological benefits it can bestow to the aggrieved party and its intimates. In ethics and law "Let the punishment fit the crime" is the principle that the severity of penalty for a misdeed or wrongdoing should be reasonable and proportional to the severity of the infraction. The concept is common to all cultures throughout the world.
In this case, we shouldn't even be talking about this issue. A crime has been committed and the guilty must pay for their crimes. Can you imagine the psychological damage this will have on the victim if we deny them justice?
Psychological pain or Psychalgia is a mental distress that affects the neurological mechanisms of the affected person, which in all cases lead to Psychological trauma. Trauma can be caused by a wide variety of events including rape, violence, loss of a loved one, damage among many other things. Many traumatized people feels permanently damaged when trauma symptoms don't go away and they don't believe their situation will improve – which normally can lead to manic depression or even worse - suicidal.
There is no long-lasting peace UNLESS justice is done! I don't expect Sam Okello to understand this because he is a highly delusional individual who lives in a state of denial.
Impunity, Sam Okello simply means exemption from punishment or loss. In the international law of human rights, it refers to the failure to bring perpetrators of human rights violations to justice and, as such, itself constitutes a denial of the victims' right to justice and redress.
Dr Murinho
Constultant Psychologists
Folks,
ReplyDeleteIf we have to give have a little bit of our sovereignty to get our country back, so be it.
Truth be told, if we are to rely on our judiciary to try these guys, we will still be at it in 2020.
Where was sovereignty in January when we were killig ourselves? If it weren't for the International community, there would be no Kenya to talk of. Now, do we want to let these guys off so that they can kill us in 2012? I don't know about you guys but that is not what i want.
Sayra,
ReplyDeleteIn forty five years we are one of Africa's largest economies, we are relatively peaceful in a zone ravaged by wars, and we are learning how to handle our issues without seeking outside help every instance we have problems.
I know we have major issues, but I also know we can overcome them on our own. And we will.
Sam,
ReplyDeletedid you know President Kibaki is the most "qualified" president we have to date? therefore by YOUR standards does that make him more "qualified" to decide whats best for Kenya?in your eyes has our "qualified" president accomplished a better job of "black rule" that you talk about compared to his predecessors?
This is not an issue of sovereignity Sam because its not what the international community are saying that matters its what the Kenyan people are saying that you should pay attention to- are we so unintelligent as to willingly surrender our sovereignity thinking we are actually removing impunity instead by demanding justice instead of unethical lawlessness?the answer of course is no
Sam, it is Kibaki who wields all the power in Kenya today as President of the republic-THAT is the sovereignity you are talking about but in a misplaced fashion. if Kibaki were to reject the implementation of the Waki report in totality does that make us more or less sovereign because he has decided what HE thinks is in the interests of this country?surely shouldn't the case be that Kibaki decides whats best for this country is to do what KENYANS think is in the best interest of the country?
Sam we are one country whose citizens are millions of miles and light years ahead of its politicias YOTE YAWEZEKANA BILA....fill it in but keep it to yourself stupid
Hi Dr. Murinho,
ReplyDeleteI'm impressed by your very sound reasoning. I very well understand your compartmentaliazation of revenge and retributive justice. If you ask me, that's just a play on semantics. It's one and the same thing. But like you said, I'm delusional and won't understand where you are coming from.
However, note that my argument today has been on the subject of soveregnity. I want us o be masters of our destiny. And just in case I bought into this retributive justice thing, why can't we met it ourselves? Why must our colonial masters do it for us?
Sam,
ReplyDeleteNothing can be added to what Taabu and Phil have said above. Let us get rid of these murderers from our midst, and also take care of impunity.
Instead of vilifying the Waki report, we should be instead be praising Justice Waki as one of the geniuses of our time. Through a clever maneuver he was able to set-up escalation clauses in his report to ensure it doesn't end up in some dusty shelf.
He deserves some Head of State commendation and medal!
e-change,
ReplyDeleteIt's unfortunate that President Kibaki has let this nation down. I had hope in him, thought he was going to gude Kenya in a different direction. He didn't. Well, I've lived in a nation that's been led by a man named Bush. This guy lauched war on a sovereign Iraq illegally. He wiretapped the citizens of his nation illegally. And he's presided over one of the worst economic downturns in American history. Have you heard anybody say that five letter word...Hague? Folks, fair is fair, if it's not good enough for the States, it's not good enough for Kenya.
Sam Okello,
ReplyDeleteIn that case, then I commented on the wrong topic. "Sovereignty" it's not my specialty. Take advice from all above comments. They all make sense to me.
Dr Murinho
Consultant Psychologist
Which Independence?? Okello?? since Kenyatta most kenyans have not enjoyed any independence or freedom of speech before being executed!! murdered! slaughtered by the government and the president of the day... should I name kenyans tha have gone under?? since kenyatta, to Moi and now Kibaki?? sure they can hit a 300,000 mark since independence..
ReplyDeleteSam Okello do not tell us to stand by a killer president... no courts of law in kenya or a commission hand picked by the same murderers will serve justice for kenyans...
All the leaders that played a hand in innocent kenyans being slaughtered must face justice... and the only option is HAGUE... at least there you can not bribe.... Kenya is a signatory to the Hague convention.. so it is stupid of you to say that the foreigners are handling this.... it is for all those nations that abuse human rights ...Kenya being one of them...
KIBAKI AND OTHERS =HAGUE LIKE IT OR NOT...
Waki is a damn idiot!
ReplyDeleteIf he was really serious about nailing impunity, the report would have been tighter and less speculative.
Sometimes I wonder at the intelligence of Kenyans.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteWaki has done what he was asked to do. I commend him for that. My contention has always been that his esclation clauses, as you rightly call them, have an inbuilt admission of failure on our part. In raw terms this is what Waki says...Hey, guys, we've failed on this one too, can you please save us again?
And we get mad when we are called some ugly things. Don't we get it?
anonymous3:34 AM
ReplyDeleteYup!!! just like the murderous like PNU Kibaki and Uhuru make me want to puke.. ati pretending that they are for the waki report... but want a home grown solution....
what does that mean??? selection of commissioners that can be bribed to say they had nothing to do with the massacre in nakuru and nairobi!! and Kibaki not having given the order to the police to shoot and kill innocent kenyans??
PNU = kibaki and Uhuru are in for a rude shock...
the decision was decided long ago the cases will be heard in HAGUE:):) wasting time will not help and even the home grown solution that they think they can control will not happen... just a gimmick... they are all heading to HAGUE....
I like it when Uhuru shouts he is ready to face up... well Hague is waiting for him let us see if his Being a Kenyatta will save him.. we have seen more powerful people in the world brought down... the blood thirsty mungiki warlord has it at last coming to him... even mama gina will not save him this time..
anon7:43,
ReplyDeleteI'm not asking anybody to stand by a killer president. I'm asking Kenyans to stand by the sovereignty and dignity of our nation. We can handle this matter on our own. And we will.
anon7:07 AM
ReplyDeleteWhich sons? no Kenyan will acknowledge murderers for sons.. maybe where you come from(central) are used to acknowledging mungiki murderers
let it be Hague and if it were to be done Saddam Husein style then the better... people who slaughter innocent Kenyans children, pregnant women, youth e.t.c for their own political gain and others ordering the police to shoot and kill innocent kenyans?
do not deserve to be on this earth.
how dare you call them our kenyans brothers, they are dead to us and they should be shipped off to Hague or join the ones they killed 6ft under " na nimesema"
anon 3:34,
ReplyDeleteHave you convicted Uhuru already? Thank God you're not a judge. But seriously, these guys are innocent until proven guilty, aren't they? All I'm saying is give us that envelope back, the one Waki rushed out of Kenya, and let's prove to the world that we are masters of our destiny.
Yes, we can!
Sam,
ReplyDeleteKenya is less of a sovereign state if one man decides to do what HE thinks is in the best interests of this country however Kenya is more of a sovereign state should that same man (i.e.Kibaki) decide to do what all Kenyans think is in the best interests for this country
As you said "Bush...lauched war on a sovereign Iraq illegally, He wiretapped the citizens of his nation illegally, he's presided over one of the worst economic downturns in American history" if the PEOPLE of America don't feel Bush warrants the Hague then let their will be respected and what is good for them is not necessarily good for us
Let our will be respected also-we are not fools and we want impunity to end
This guy Sam is a nut case,
ReplyDeleteati now he wants the envelope back..! Haiya!
Is that a euphemism for; give it back so we can rip it and burn it before we open it, I wonder.
I pray that who ever is in possession of this precious package has already opened it and Xeroxed it a million times for the world to see when the time is right
In the Hague.
ps. Sam, am going to report your case to Baba Obama. i think you are well ripe for camp Delta
Sam Okello,
ReplyDeleteYou are a full moon in a dark night and the dogs of war are trying to scare the brightness of your suggestion away. Shine on and let them bark but at the end of the day some light will have to get into their heads.
If there will be trials, they will be before a locally constituted tribunal. There will be no Hague for Kenyans. Period. For those who doubt that, let us re-visit this topic in March 2009.
bobie, bristol,
ReplyDeleteThat's sweet. Baba Obama knows a thing or two about my tough head. In any case, tell Kofi we can handle the contents of that bahasa just fine. If he wants to help someone, he may want to look at the DR Congo or the Sudan. Thankfully Obama will now take care of the States.
Kenya? We're doing just fine.
Raila is rooting for Hague so that it can do what he has been unable to do - eliminate his political competition (ie Ruto). What a cynic!!
ReplyDeleteKwanza huyo mwivi was molasses factory has to jig past Ruto before he can face THE ONE from Mwingi - Kalonzo.
Kenyans have perfected mob mentality and is in full display today here at kk. Even the damn have found a word or two to throw at Okello.
ReplyDeleteOkello don't be intimidated, your independent thoughts, however, wrong are refleshing!
anon 8:52,
ReplyDeleteThank you for believing in Kenya. It would be nice for all of us to watch our legal system work and deliver justice. The Hague is for failed states. Kenya is a vibrant nation, albeit with problems. But what nation doesen't have problems? What we need to work on is ensuring that our judicial system is fortified enough that it can handle a challenge of this magnitude. I know it can. And it will.
7:55 AM
ReplyDeleteSam
Keep up the dream:) it will not be a home grown solution , nada.. it won't happen... speaking to most kenyans and believe me a survey was done from coast to coast.. it will be released soon. most kenyans 95% want the murderers tried in Hague. just like the referendum... ordinary kenyans have decided and they are even prepared to vote on it..
why do you think ordinary kenyans want all this killers tried in Hague??
because they know the system stinks and any commissioner selected to head the tribunal can not be trusted... why the Waki report prevailed was because the 10 names were handed over to Koffi Annan... can you imagine what would have happened if the same names had been handed to Kibaki??
1. he would have flashed then in the toilet if his name or Uhuru's name were on the list
2. he would have removed all PNU members names and replaced them with ODM names
3. he would have used it to frustrate and jail ODM members
so quit trying to say stand by our country.. nope first remove the killers so that kenyans are proud of their country.. kenyans will not stand by the thugs and thieves that are ruling the country ... starting with a free hand at executing anyone against them(even mungiki's have a right for a day in court) who gives Kibaki the right to execute them??
Sam Okello kenyans want all those involved in the slaughter of innocent kenyans to face Hague.. do you blame them not trusting our kenya home grown commissions?? how many commissions have ever worked in kenya?? name one... this are normally used for witch hunting or executing innocent kenyans..
Hague is a must. ordinary kenyans who lost their loved ones and saw the government machinery trying to repress kenyans have spoken...Okello your dream of argument has no hope..
8:01 AM
ReplyDeleteOkello
yes you can what?? protect murderers?? stop using \Obama's phrase for murderers! kenyans reject a home grown solution and by uhuru admitting himself on all the national newspapers that he was involved! how can you say he is innocent... he claimed he was protecting the kikuyu's by unleashing the mungiki'son other tribes... Hague is the answer period!!
Okello,
ReplyDeleteGo ahead, tell them not to wait for Obama or mzungu to come and tarmac our roads or take our children to school. Or wake us up in the morning to go and dig our gardens. Next time, these dimwits will even call the mzungu to come solve their disputes with their wives. Led by Taabu, their newest chorus is Hague this, Hague that. These are total village idiots who think everything foreign is good. Give them a mzungu and they will lick all his holes and more!!!!!!!!
8:56 AM
ReplyDeleteOkello
you say kenya is doing fine?? after the slaughter of more than 3000 kenyans?? from Nairobi, Nakuru, Naivasha, western, coast, Mt. Elgon??
tell me or show me any slaughters carried out in Central province?? execpt for the mungiki's kibaki ordered to be executed??
Kibaki & Uhuru and Michuki and Karume= HAGUE
POLE SANA
What sovereignty are we all talking about? I thought the PEOPLE of Kenya are the sovereign???! (and not necessarily the territory!)
ReplyDelete8:59 AM
ReplyDeletePNU bla bla bla.... Kibaki is heading to HAGUE even as we see him trying to boot lick Obama:):)
the old senile goon has it coming for him... ask Kagame of Rwanda... sources say his personal assistant has confessed on how Kagame and group planned and executed and shot down the plane that killed the leaders of Burundi and Rwanda... Kagame will be heading to Hague tooo mark my words
Kibaki, Kagame and Museveni all this leaders will face Hague sooner than later..
Sam, the reason why International Criminal Courts exists is because there are some countries like Kenya that lack a tradition of rule of law, suffer from corruption or that have entrenched systems of patronage, or where the judiciary is weak or members of the security forces/politicians are protected by special jurisdictions or immunities.
ReplyDeleteThere will be no need to go to HAGUE should Kenya comply with whatever days they were given to set-up a local tribunal. Also there will be no need to go to HAGUE if justice can be followed to the books in Kenya.
The only reason people are suggesting Hague is because they cannot trust Kenya Justice systems
And in our fake patriotisms ati Sovereignty (sick!), do you know even before Hague was established there was what they called Nuremberg Trials where all Nazi collaborators stood trial for war crimes committed during Second World War?- countries like Russia, Finland, France, Italy and many other countries surrendered their citizens to the tribunal. Are these countries not sovereign states?
Sam, you see, you only see crimes committed by a "killer" president but none by your beloved ODMdreamers, you are so blind in your idol worship you cannot see the notorious killers like Ntimama or Ruto.
Btw, who told you Hague is for failed states? It's only Israel, China and US that has resisted joining the International criminal court for obvious reasons– but they still support the tribunal!
Sam Okello you are a disgrace to Kenyans in Diaspora, not everyone think like you!
9:10 AM
ReplyDeleteSam
Kenya is a failed state.. why pretended?? the coalition is not working... IDP's still displaced..
MP's with fat cheques... corruption worse than Anglo leasing still happening...
kenyans dying of hunger.. crime at the higest... police have become criminals.. the lame duck in statehouse...
kenya is a failed state right after 27th December 2007 failed election..
sweeping facts under the carpet will not help the failed state of kenya Okello..
it starts with Hague...they who made kenya a failed state must pay...
sam
ReplyDeleteyou touch on a number of issues both in the post and your numerous comments above
lets start in general with the general consensus in kenya (wananchi side) by remembering the words of wisdom offered in the serenity prayer
"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference."
Kenyans over the years have consistently demonstrated sometimes with great pain that we have courage to institute and face change and have also shown resilience to endure the circumstances when change is not possible. Right now kenyans are saying that yes we have courage to tackle impunity and as per Waki either do it in house within a certain period or if shoddy or time barred then escalate the issue. Please note Waki did not go to the Hague but first gave an option for the homegrown solution, but also an alternative by presenting to the next step up the hierarchy i.e AU which as you recall was the appointing authority for Annan. It just so happens that AU do not yet have a body that matches the ICC. Therefore racist jab is in bad taste, out of place and totally uncalled for and is shameful coming from you.
Regarding sovereignty - there is idealism and then there is pragmatism, whereas they do not always necessarily have to operate in mutual exclusion there are many times one will thrive in the absence of or by considerably diminishing the other. in many cases Sam, sovereignty must be upheld when there are existing working home grown solutions whether in raw or polished form or if by so doing it fosters national pride, encourages economic growth or harmony etc. it however cannot be an excuse for gross mismanagement and inefficiency.
pragmatism is therefore when leadership recognizes that although atrractive, a homegrown solution will be arrived at far a much greater expense (time, funds, resources etc) than is viable to outsource and also that the end result of the home grown solution will neither add value to the outcome or otherwise profit the country. idealism in such an instance only serves to satiate the ego. Along this line of reasoning you could draw absurd parallels such as refusing to board or use an airplane or motor vehicle or otherwise embrace progressive technologies until or unless they are direct products from our native villages i.e Sam where do you draw the line on homegrown solution/sovereignity vs pragmatism? there are many instances when we need to seek alternatives and fresh ideas, just as there are also times when its foolish to re-invent a wheel.
lastly Sam, lets break down the home grown solution and look at the cast. in its implementation we have the leadership being offered by the one and only Amos Wako in his capacity as our AG who to date is yet to score any meaningful success in any high profile case involving the executive as pointed out above by others. then we have Justice Gicheru himself a part of the problem, then the RAW wrestling team comprising the PNU tag team of 4 on one hand and the ODM team of 4 on the other both very interesting in that the Justice Minister and internal security ministers are represented in this group and also the most vocal anit-Waki RV rep is also in this team, all of whom also have their eye on presidency in 4 years or less time. what an excellent opportunity to permanently bury your aspiring opponents. And of course the "hands tied" two principals who are staring around with jaws dropped to the floor stuck between a hard place and a rock. Then we have the investigation and detective work to be carried out by police force (oh yeah they too stand accused of atrocities as well). Somewhere in there Sam or somehow you are able to see leadership to take unbiased control of these proceedings to give it a homegrown solution and come up with credible process. I think the only logical conslusion to such a process Sam would be that it would be so muddled up that like Kriegler before it would be impossible for any solution other than forgive and forget and move on. so you are subconsciously or deliberately trying very hard to shepherd all thought process into this corner.
I would tell you, Sam, nice try, but its time for you to get real.
9:25 AM
ReplyDeleteKwale
From your Mountainview California hide out we hear you voted for McCain and Palin ofcourse your hate for Raila translating his relationship with Obama can be seen on this blogs from the beginning..but guess what it will not work..
Get it straight.. Raila did not order the police to shoot and kill innocent kenyans ... your Kibaki did and the buck starts and stops with Kibaki..
his name is number one on the Waki list... that is why he Kibaki is fighting for a home grwon solution on waki's report and has convinced the warlords like Uhuru to sing the same tune...
guess what they are wasting their time... Hague has already been decided... frog marched they will and justice will be served on any kenyans from both parties who had a hand in the killings of any kenya before, during and after the 27th December 2007 elections.
if we can trust the kenyan judiciary then lets try the murders in kenyan courts, if there is a remote possibility that they can work the system then let the hague do what it does best. justice is all am asking for. justice.
ReplyDeleteSam,
ReplyDeleteWhen you are measuring your progress don't compare yourself with the fool ... all you end up doing is fooling yourself.
Been one of the largest economies in Africa keeping in mind that less than 10 countries is what u can boast about not 52 countries means nothing. Been a relatively peaceful country for 4yrs right before the general elections ... then right after every general elections we all want to kill each other is nothing to boast about.
If you really wanna measure Kenya's progress my best bet would be South Korea who we were at the same level economically in 1972. Now Sam, in comparison to S-Korea where would you place Kenya?
Such are the kind of comparisons you shld be thinking of ... Sam tafadhali think in that direction.
yoUr eXcellency
ReplyDeleteNice detailed explanation.
I want to remind you that this is basically about the right to live. If people are being murdered in large numbers like they did and the government, the people are no able to protect them, then they deserve the right of justice from wherever source. The people who did and organized these killings did so with the knowledge that they would somehow be protected by those two big pin-heads now running the country. How do you guarantee justice under the current political situation?
ReplyDeleteIt’s like when you have serious problem in you house that cannot be resolved. You go to your neighbor or to the chief for an outsider help. Everybody including you the editor and me is part of the problem and we cannot solve it within ourselves. This is about life not economics. What good is sovereignty if your own life is not protected?
Sam,
ReplyDeleteI didn't see with you eye to eye on your last topic. That we should throw the whole Waki thing out. Now you have chosen to side step a little bit and try to accommodate those of our thinking. But you still don't get it, man.
This thing has never been about the West, it has everything to do with us. Do we want impunity out or NOT? Why should people sponsor atrocities and run back to their tribes for protection.
We normally say shame the devil and we surely need to. Obama has done it against all roadblocks and YES WE CAN do it too.
Sam, you forget to mention that the Kenyan judiciary is thoroughly blessed with incompetence, our ‘Carlos-the-jackal presidency’ is gifted in James-Bond-like type of thievery and the Kenyan legislature graduated with high triple honors from the University of Treachery.
ReplyDeleteIf being a proud Kenyan means supporting and sustaining the above, then I agree with you. You see, we all support and sustain these institutions. If we didn’t, they would not be in existence today. The way I see it, we deserve every little bit of disservice delivered upon us by our very own elected leaders.
That said, I do support going to The Hague. It’s about time we display our backwardness for the entire world to see.
Sam Okello
ReplyDeleteHow ironic that you are spewing this nonsense from a whiteman's land, if you are so proud of Kenyan sovereinity then why did you move to the land of "milk" and honey?
Sam,
ReplyDeleteWe've heard this rhetoric before. Now is the time to tell us what exactly you want kenyans to do and how they should go about it.
Some Homework:
Please read the kenyan constitution and tell us what it says when it comes to abuse of office, violence or incitement and breach of peace.
You basically have 2 choices. Either become a preacher or stand by the constitution. It is unfortunate that most kenyans are not educated about what the constitution says.
tehhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee hahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ODM kwisha. Nndoa ikivunjika ya raila na ruto......ihiiiiiiii. Country road take me home to the hague ...to the north sea ..i am a murderer got to pay for ma sins......HAGUE wwapende wasipende.....eeh jikojoleeee..hague .....ni lazimaaaa
ReplyDeleteanon4:15 PM
ReplyDeleteHa!!ha!!ha!! he!!he!!he!! you are so hilarious.... I guess confusing ODM with Kibaki the senile murderer makes your day... he!he!he!
Now let me say it to you loud and clear incase your ears have gone to sleep...
who ordered the police and the army to shoot and kill innocent kenyans all across the country?? in order to rig elections and stay in power??
KIBAKI THE SENILE MURDEROUS FOOL!!
who had meetings with the mungiki murderous gang before! during! and after the 27th December 2007 elections and we now have facts of the mungiki gang confirming this on tape!!
Kibaki the senile thug..
KIBAKI IS HEADING TO THE HAGUE!! PERIOD... MUPENDE MUSIPENDE!!HE WILL BE FROG MARCHED TO HAGUE WITH ALL THE OTHER GOONS WHO SLAUGHTERED INNOCENT KENYANS....
ANON4:15 PM...
ReplyDeleteTELL THE OTHAYA FOLKS NOT TO BOTHER ARRANGING ANY FUNERAL FOR KIBAKI WHEN HE GETS TO HAGUE... HE WILL NEVER COME BACK... UZEEE TOPU....
THE SENILE FOOL DESERVES ALL THE SHIATE COMING AT HIM...
Wonder how the Hague will handle a chap with alzheimer's?;) Ever stopped to think about that Kumekucha zealots? Care to remember or should I jog your foggy memories?
ReplyDeleteIn short, think beyond this impunity (alias revenge) maneno and realize that there's a LOT more at stake in our political economy in the short and medium term that will NOT be cured by focusing on just ONE thing of a rather longer term nature that promises its own twists and turns.
Just this past week, the good pony-tailed ambassador said something on national television that is of tremendous value--there's some low-hanging fruit that can be harvested about now.
Go figure, O ye men/women of good will whose love for country is clearly unsurpassed.
ICC is a court for banana republics and Kenya am sorry to say is one of them!
ReplyDeleteYou peiople talk about Sovereignty?People with no identity..everything from their names to their language..Crucify the list>.all of them in HAGUE!
The issue of trial by the ICC is not a coup on our sovereignty, or distrust of our courts. Charges of genocide and crimes against humanity are best handled by international tribunals that do not favour either side. The ICC has a complementary jurisdction to our Courts, and Kenya ratified the Rome statute establishing ICC out of own violation. We submitted to the Courts jusisdiction, unlike the United States that refused to ratify.
ReplyDeleteAbout the envelope, it will be a great surprise if the names are made public. The persons you console yourself to be outside the envelope may be right inside there for I even do not trust the author when he says that so and so is not there. A big surprise is in store.
However, there are technical shortcomings with Kofi Annan forwarding the envelope. If not handed over by the Kenyan Government, the application can only survive a technical blow if the Security Council passes a resolution enabling the ICC to be seized of the matter. The ICC statute does not recognise Annan.
The issue of trial by the ICC is not a coup on our sovereignty, or distrust of our courts. Charges of genocide and crimes against humanity are best handled by international tribunals that do not favour either side. The ICC has a complementary jurisdction to our Courts, and Kenya ratified the Rome statute establishing ICC out of own violation. We submitted to the Courts jusisdiction, unlike the United States that refused to ratify.
ReplyDeleteAbout the envelope, it will be a great surprise if the names are made public. The persons you console yourself to be outside the envelope may be right inside there for I even do not trust the author when he says that so and so is not there. A big surprise is in store.
However, there are technical shortcomings with Kofi Annan forwarding the envelope. If not handed over by the Kenyan Government, the application can only survive a technical blow if the Security Council passes a resolution enabling the ICC to be seized of the matter. The ICC statute does not recognise Annan.
If Kenya was sovereignty and all its wanaicnhi were equal in the eyes of the law, we would not be taking of Hague. Kenyans want haki yao, and it seems Hague is the last hope for any sort of justisce. This time waki played his card well.
ReplyDeleteKenya is our home land, went home house is burning, it wise get out and extinguish the fire from outside
Kenyans are corrupt and can not be entrusted with such a duty. The courts are dependent on the executive. The executive was involved in violence, with the president being the first suspect.
ReplyDeleteWhat outcome would you expect, if the Kenyan courts would be in charge? The tax payer would be financing a show in which the president would wash himself clean.
Forget the wrong African pride, forget the wrong patriotism. All we want is a clean country without rats and coackroaches.
Kwenda uko. Aren't you the same idiots that said the local courts were too corrupt to handle any electoral challenge mounted by ODM?
ReplyDeleteNow you start banging on about sovereignty and surrender. Why don't you just fuck off you duplicitous CUNT.
Ruto et al are heading to the Hague, it takes years before commencing proceedings there and iseriously hope that a lot of political careers are destroyed.