Friday, June 02, 2006

The Two Problem Tribes in Kenyan Politics

If A Way Could Be Found To Have Them Withdraw From Politics, We Would Be Able To Achieve A Lot... But Alas, It ain't possible

I have just returned from a visit in the Kenyan Coastal region that has made me look at Kenyan politics from a whole new light.

Usually I love to mingle with the ordinary folks (the majority voters) and listen closely to what they have to say. I had a prolonged discussion with this rather attractive Digo woman, who has just had her fourth child.

She's fairly intelligent and had some controversial remarks to make about Coast politicians. Including one that I am yet to recover from about the late Karisa Maitha having been assassinated because he was well on his way to standing for the presidency. The mother of four was pretty sure about that one and even gave the example of Ronald Ngala (who died in a mysterious road accident on the Mombasa road in the mid 70s which most analysts believe was an assassination). She informed me that the late Ronald Ngala's son, (katana Ngala) now a senior Kanu Coast province politician fears to stand for the presidency saying that he does not want the fate that befell his father to also befall him.

But it was what she said about the Coast being allowed to give the nation its' next president that really struck me. It seems that the view rapidly gathering momentum at the Coast now is that Kenyans will always be making a mistake when they choose a President from one of the "big tribes". Choosing one from the smaller tribes (preferably those ones at the Coast) will be much better for the future of the nation.

What she said next made even more sense. She said that she had gone to school (at the Coast) with students who hailed from the notorious two big tribes that have always caused problems in Kenyan politics. Namely the Luo and the Kikuyu. If a way could be found to leave these two tribes out of politics in Kenya, tribalism and all the current political problems we have would be a thing of the past. She went on to say that by going to school wiuth members of the two big problem tribes, she had learnt that "tribalism" was too deeply entrenched in them and because of this they are actually holding the country back.

No matter which angle I tried to analyze the Digo woman's remarks, I could not fault them.

In the referendum over the constitution last year, these two big tribes were the most responsible for creating tensions and fanning tribal animosity. Had we been in a situation where the Luo and Kikuyu were completely left out of things, we would have been able to analyze the document more soberly. If you look at all the political realignments happening in the country at the moment, they are all happening under the close supervision of these two big tribes.

Historically the whole problem started with the brilliant son of Kenya called Tom Mboya (who wanted nothing to do with tribalism and yet his assassination triggered the worst tribal-based violence in the history of Kenya. Yes, worse than even the so-called tribal clashes of the early 90s which were "political creations."

In sharp contrast the many small tribes at the Coast are very united. It helps that most of them speak one language – Kiswahili – quite well. In fact Coast province is probably the least tribal oriented province in the country.

The Digo woman emphasized her political statements further by proving that she's in fact married to a non-Digo man.

She will never read this post because she has probably never come close to a computer in her life, let alone surfed the net. But I am very grateful to her for the sort of political education I would not have gotten anywhere else.

33 comments:

  1. Quit sugar coating tribalism! Both of you. Anyone that thinks the tribe of a president will affect leadership just isn't with the program. hawaelewi our real issues!

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  2. Tribalism is much deeper than what the Digo woman has suggested, The 2 tribes story is really touching but does not tell the whole deal about the political and social/economic problems that we have in Kenya. By just summarizing it to be caused by the tribes we are being to simplistic and may be doing a disservice to the poor Digo woman. Faulting her would not have been the best thing by point here in the right direction, point out other factors that could have caused the political issues, but alas we will never get to see her or hear about her again.

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  3. Well, I'm going to stay away from your "two tribes should be kept out of Kenyan politics" drift and comment instead on the issue of tribalism.

    I was talking about this with my boyfriend who happens to be from one of those two tribes you've mentioned and I'm from the other.

    Our conclusion was that as far as killing tribalism in Kenya, our generation, 18-45, has already failed. I have friends my age who are pathologically tribal. To hear them talk just saddens me.

    What I know and have experienced is that it goes beyond the two tribes you've mentioned, and actually encompasses all other tribes.

    I don't agree with you that Luos and Kikuyus are holding Kenya back. But I do believe tribalism is.

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  4. I'm willing to bet you my lunch for a week that everybody who has commented so far hails from the two problems tribes of Kenya.

    I have a story for Ms K. First I want you to know that I really wish you the best in your relationship and if you made me President in 2007, the first thing I would do is ensure that marriage across tribes is encouraged (officially). I'm willing not only to give 100% tax waiver but to also give cash grants (instead of spending it on corruption and Anglo Leasing-type projects) to couples who marry across tribal boundaries. This is one powerful way of dealing with tribalism.

    Actually I should be an authority in this matter because my mum was a Luhya and my dad is A Kamba (East and Western Kenya tribes).

    My story for Ms K is about the best friend I ever had who did more for me than any man will ever do. He was a Luo man married to a Kikuyu lady. They started off well but when they reached that point where every relationship gets tested, the family (especially on the Kikuyu side) hounded the relationship to it's death. Actually it all ended with the tragic shooting of my friend in what was clearly a hit.

    So I agree with you Ms K when you say that this generation has failed to overcome tribalism. The problem is that we think we have. The truth is that we haven't. Look at marriages (I don't beleive that folks in Nairobi just happen to fall in love with girls from their own tribes), listen to people talk and then put everybody in a situation where push comes to shove and their true colors emerge.

    A good example was last year's referendum, which the country is yet to recover from. The wounds will take a very long time to heal.

    God help Kenyans fight this brute of a monster.

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  5. Pole sana about your friend.

    Chris, remember when Kalembe Ndile said that the government should start a programme to encourage people to marry from other tribes. People laughed him off, but I think it was a moment of genius!

    Luckily for me, and I hope this doesn't change, my family doesn't meddle much in my life, and my extended family only features during weddings and funerals.

    As for the mister, all his brothers have married outside the "tribe" and his father really wants him to marry from the "tribe". I'm told it wouldn't be a problem but still I wonder.

    You're so right. The trouble is we think we have overcome tribalism, when really it just seems to have gotten worse.

    During the referendum, I was shocked when someone very close to me shouted "These [insert my tribe here] are not getting it again" to my face. I was shocked, saddened, appalled and ashamed.

    God help us indeed!

    Ps/ Chris for president!!!

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  6. It is sickening to see educated poeple(coz you know how to use a computer) blaming tribalism for Kenyas woes. Just in case you forgot those 2 tribes have not been in power or in a position to influence government policies for the last 18 years. Kenyas real Our problem is short sitedness and illitracy.

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  7. Ms K, Kenya is relying on you. Follow your heart to the ends of the earth. True love knows no boundaries, least of all tribal ones.

    I have a dream...
    that one day, from the shores of Lake Victoria to the beaches of Mombasa and from the heights of Mount Kenya to the remote Nothern frontier, Kenyans will be one tribe, one people and that Luos and Kikuyus will walk together hand in hand and their relatives will not notice that they have married from the "other tribe."

    I have a dream...

    Maybe somebody should start an anti-tribalism movement and finance candidates whom we are sure are non-tribal and understand the damage tribalism has done in Kenya (is your boyfriend interested in politics?).

    P.S. Looking forward to meeting you at my swearing in ceremony (where I will announce the tribalism incentives). Dec 30th 2007, Uhuru Park. Pls don't be late.

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  8. Chris,Adolph Hitler also had a final solution to o you have one for the two problem tribes as you call them.....Stop showing your Myopia The trouble with democracy is that even Idiots like Chris have to be heard.
    Kikuyu

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  9. I have published this abusive comment so that readers will be able to make up their own minds about the sort of person who wrote it. And the sort of thinking we have in Kenya today.

    Would a non-tribalist publish a comment hiding their real name behind some anonymous tag and then call me by name?

    I have realized that the other really big problem with tribalism in Kenya today is the fact that everybody is in denial.

    At no time did I suggest an Adolf Hitler solution to the problem, sir.

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  10. Then the guy signs his letter 'Kikuyu'. Is it possible that he could be Luo? When people hide behind masks they could be anything.

    You've gotten democracy all wrong, buddy, it's not about abusing the other person, it is about debate and articulating your point of view.

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  11. I am a Kikuyu after being a Kenyan after being a human. YES! Truth be told we are a very tribalistic people. Our pattern of voting is a clear indication of that... can everyone stop pretending and taking offence about the suggestion that we are a problem to the whole national development and instead analyze it and find ways to sort stuff out...

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  12. Will somebody give this Kenyan a medal, QUICK!!! If I knew your physical address I would try and scramble together some shilingis to send you some flowers draped in the national flag colours, of course.

    This is further proof that inspite of everything it is wrong to judge a tribe by the actions of the majority (that is also tribalism) because there will always be a level-headed Kenyan somewhere prepared to face the problem with the intention of tackling it.

    Once again kudos Vee... if only there were a few more like you, we would change Kenya.

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  13. Kweli Kibaki Abaki na sisi tuendelee mbele.

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  14. the one on Voting pattern is correct.i think we kkikuyus have a phobia for losing what 'WE' have and 'not getting what we aspire to have'

    Luos may vote for a Kikuyu candidate( all that is required is Raila to say my vote is for Kamau) but kikuyus will never vote for a luo even if Karume votes a hundred times for a Luo candidate.

    Cris....hope you become a president cause the moment you declare your 'inter tribe marraiges package' my brothers will flock the Lakeside town.....not just for the incentives but also to do some business and uplift econimic stds of the Lake side town.

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  15. when it comes to tribal identity, i'm left wallowing in an identity crisis. i've commented this before on someone else's post. i am a mixture of four different tribes. mom is half kyuk half kamba. dad is half turkana half luhya. i know of at least 6 of my friends who are also quarter tribes and i'm sure there are many out there. so tribalism is caused by the older generation who like geroge bush want to continue where their fathers left. let's all be united and do away with the discrimination.

    on the other hand, i've learnt to use my situation to my advantage. i have a kyuk name and a luhya name and another one that i think is turu. so when i know i'm going to be judged according to origin i can always choose the appropriate name and get the favour i need. athawais i'm kenyan and not really proud to be one though i cannot imagine myself being a citizen of any other nation.

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  16. This is the most myopic treatise that I have ever read. It tries to demystify the whole rubric of tribalism but ends up being very tribal. I went to school where there were Luos and Luhyas and Kikuyus and Giriamas and many other tribes including the Digo but we were brought up in an atmosphere of being Kenyans. I never thought of myself as a Luo. I ended up marrying a Maragoli and my best man was a Kikuyu! Tribalism only exists among the political class who are presently clamoring for leadership or trying, albeit unsuccessfully to retain power. This class hammers into the minds of the illiterate and uninformed vitriol of tribalism. This happens only in politics. It does not happen in NGOs or Churches or even Schools

    gj

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  17. Voting pattern would have been a thing of past if the the referendum elections did not come up. We all voted in 2002 as Kenyans against bad policies and government until the MOU and referendum became an issue and the tribalism ghost has come back haunting.

    How about bringing up kids who only speak English and Swa? Am one of them I cant speak my mother tongue and its hard to identify with my tribe except for my name. And I have no intentions of teaching my kids any mother tongue. That way I think we shall be one and tribalism curbed.

    Hello can I have a support on this?

    Oxy.

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  18. I being a Kikuyu knows that most Kikuyus are a real problem in this country because of the overambition,gluttony for power,money and property.These attributes are vividly manifested in Kenyan politics, social life, economic and cultural lifestyles of the Kikuyus.

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  19. The perceived greed and over ambition for money power and property is the energy that drives this economy of ours. Those who feel it is not should go to Tanzania and see how people who have no ambition have 'laliad masikio'. Ambition is the gear wheel that propels economic growth-unless we want to live in a socialist state. Just because someone has exploited resources that were lying bare before you and you lacked the will or desire to use them you now label him a glutton or a thief!!! WACHENI WIVU!!!

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  20. Luos are not the problem, it is the Kikuyu. Ask a Kalenjin and they will tell you it is the pride of the Kikuyu which is fanning Hatred. It is not even the killing of Tom Mboya alone, but the way resources were sharred after Independence which is fanning the Hatred.
    The Kikuyus are using short cuts to achieve thier goals which is even worsening the situation. Look at the way Kibaki is using the Steadmann research (polls) to cheat Kenyan that he is popular, the way he wants to appoint Electrol commisioners, the way he is driving away the Maasai from Laikipia and very many other crazy things that we are seeing.
    Kikuyu Shorts cut are brooding something very bad which if nothing is done all the tribes of Kenya may avenge against them one day

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  21. ROBERT OUKO CULTURAL CENTRE

    The modern Luo man is a hard worker,proud,rich and intelligent.This is also true of any tribe in Kenya.

    The luo man remarkably unlike others though has an acute if not impeccable sense of integrity, which distinguishes them from the rest of the pack.

    It is ingrained in his dna, and together with personal virtue, his zealous ambition for personal wealth,makes up what people have come to characterise as ja-luo.

    The kikuyu tribe can never be a luo mans enemy. That is why they voted for one- Kibaki.

    Circumcised or not a luo man from childhood whether living in the slums or in a palace is taught at home that he is superior to any kikuyu, whether they happen to be the president of Kenya, or a matatu tout.

    This is the reason why it is only the luo who have stoned two presidents of kenya with rotten eggs. It is not the presidency or a kikuyu/kalenjin they were flogging , but the putrid lack of intergrity and low human virtue that characterise a class of human being that to a luo is unnaceptable.

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  22. ROBERT OUKO CULTURAL CENTRE

    The modern Luo man is a hard worker,proud,rich and intelligent.This is also true of any tribe in Kenya.

    The luo man remarkably unlike others though has an acute if not impeccable sense of integrity, which distinguishes them from the rest of the pack.

    It is ingrained in his dna, and together with personal virtue, his zealous ambition for personal wealth,makes up what people have come to characterise as ja-luo.

    The kikuyu tribe can never be a luo mans enemy. That is why they voted for one- Kibaki.

    Circumcised or not a luo man from childhood whether living in the slums or in a palace is taught at home that he is superior to any kikuyu, whether they happen to be the president of Kenya, or a matatu tout.

    This is the reason why it is only the luo who have stoned two presidents of kenya with rotten eggs. It is not the presidency or a kikuyu/kalenjin they were flogging , but the putrid lack of intergrity and low human virtue that characterise a class of human being that to a luo is unnaceptable.

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  23. hey all i know is Luos tell the kikuyus how it is yaani kama wajaluo did not do tht then we would all be suffering under the hands of kyuks. I am not saying i gotts a problem with kyuks its wengine wao wana bore.

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  24. It is interesting that in this day and age we are still thinking along tribal lines. I thought the blog was trying to show us the errors of thimentality but on reading the posts in reply to it I find that all of them are pretty much propagating the very thing that we are trying to stomp out. How can a whole tribe be blamed for the actions of one man or a few men? How can animosity towards this tribe or the next be a thing to be proud of? If Kenya is ever to progress people WILL have to GROW UP and think independently. If you see a man stealing (Kamau though he may be) does that mean that all Kyks are thugs? If you see a man fising (Ondiek though he may be) does that mean that all Jang'os are fisermen? Guys, if WE (the youth) think along those lines then our country is doomed to repeat the mistakes that happened in the late 60's and early 90's.

    I'm a Kyuk and proud of it AND I have no dramas with any Kyuk or Jang'o until they mess with me or my country's welfare. THAT should be the stance we adopts type of , not hating tribes. Wake up and see what you are saying people.

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  25. quick predication to the kenyan community, i am not originally from kenyan but i am married to a luo woman, and in my honest opinion tribalism will never end in kenya until a young sober almost monkish group of intellectuals start to self-sacrificingly create a new african identity (not this superficial pan-african or race blind society stuff), but some real serious in depth life sacrificing work and living example type stuff. i mean their are millions of africans in the region looking for something other then tribal or euro-american, and arab identities. lets go to work people, at the root all our traditions have a commonality, lets uproot these commonalitities, and lets hark back to our ancient greatness as black african people (egypt-kush). honestly folks work like this is not for the opportunisitic or faint at heart...but we need our own dali lami's karl marx confusians martin luthers and martin luther king...to live is to sacrifice to sacrifice is to be born again..lets change the debate into one of aspiring to heights in which our ancestors and those not yet born will honor our spirits.

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  26. To be a Kenyan is not that expensive and neither is it that cheap. Reading through the comments. to an extent, shows the cultural diversity and the desire and passion that we have as Kenyans.

    I am for the tax waiver or incentive idea for inter-tribal marriages.

    While still on campus, a group of us, young and dedicated, made a committment to marry outside our tribes. We are still stuck in the dream with most of us getting highly engaged with ladies outside our tribes. We are out to change the Kenya of tomorrow for the betterment of our kids and grandies.

    I, however, not of the view that we cannot blame a whole tribe just coz of the actions of a few. Somewhere else, maybe, but not in Kenya. We have seen how the greed of the leaders of three regimes we have had since 1963 have eliminated, through assassinations and even hanging, those opposed to their selfish interest. It is actually amazing that the likes of Raila are still alive. An MP is an individual and more often than not, they influence the majority of Kenyans especially from the rural areas. We. there4, have to blame them.

    Finally, I am proud to be Amoke - the Kenyan.

    Do something that will make a difference for all tribes.

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  27. Hi everyone.Im a South African who is interested in studying the impact of tribalism in African politics and economy.I should say that it was by accident that found myself reading these comments.im reacting with alarm at the apparent tribalism that is perpetuated here.A Kenyan friend of mine at the University of Pretoria told me all about the problems of tribalism in Kenya, but i thought he was exagerating.Tribalism here in South Africa is not a major problem since we were all united against racism.I was planning to visit Kenya for holiday this christmas,but the tribalism as highlighted in this post makes me wonder if i should come at all.it will be election time in Kenya during that period,and i cant but wonder if ethnic tension will be high at the time.we do have tribal stereotypes in South Africa, but it has never led to assassinations and violence amongst the different ethnic groups here in the South.Well, anyway, thanks for enlightening me on what to expect when i visit Kenya.I will probably meet some Massai and Kikuyus fighting over cattle and grazing land,thats what my Kenyan friend down here told me.

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  28. Dear people,

    I am not a Kenyan but after reading about the history and present turmoil of Kenya's politics, I can conclude that those of you who call yourselves either Luos or Kikuyu are indirectly causing the killings of humans.
    The people who have recently killed women, children, men, are lost souls and not afraid of the Almighty God who will one day show them their wrong-doings and will punish them unless they repent or as God pleases. I mean, how angry can a man be to axe someone as they run away from them. Or how evil can man be who takes advantage of the turmoil by raping mothers and sisters. The armed cowardly men just watch and let it happen.

    If people of today divide themselves into groups called Luos or Kikuyu, they are blindly believing in what their respected parents have taught them. For those of you who do not call yourselves peaceful Kenyans, open your eyes and don't be blind. Whatever wrongs were committed in the past is not your fault and nor should you take revenge as you think right. Revenge is evil. Two wrongs can never make a right.

    Many stories you and I have heard including the throwing of a chair, have stemmed from events that you truely do not know the history of because you and I are not God and so we do not know of anything as 100% true. Only God is the All-seeing and All-knowing.

    With these doubts, we cannot make accusations of any sort as it is not in our right. Whatever family you have been brought up in has told you biased tales. Please do not believe them all as a coin has two sides. Every time some of you say, Luos are enreasonable, emotional or unelectable or whether you say never trust a Kikuyu, you are being prejudiced, ignorant and foolish. Repent while you are alive for any slandering or hypocricy you may have done, as God is All-forgiving. Strive ahead in peace and harmony. A person who commits a murder, a loss of a life over politics, is destined for doom.
    Wisen up those who create divisions and good wishes to all those who want to end the violence. Life is too short to live in hate. We are all going to die one day and the Day of Judgement is closer than we can imagine - the Day when we shall be asked what we did in this world. We all need to say that we worshipped God alone, gave charity and did all the duties endorsed on us to the best of our abilities - we do not want to wake up to say things like, Luos were too emotional and Kikuyu's were untrustworthy. Come on people, lets all wisen up. Let the past be the past, and lets pray for the ones who have died both recently and for our parents who may have been wrongly divided due to some corrupt leaders. God is Most-forgiving.

    From a sister in Islam.

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  29. Saturday, October 07, 2006
    Kenyan National Crisis That Everybody Ignores
    As we approach the general elections, there is one disturbing issue that most Kenyans are aware of but do not want to talk about. Or can I say, dare not talk about.

    Over the last few days, readers of this blog and visitors from a neighbouring country have openly discussed this issue of how they relate to each other. The comments have shocked and alarmed many, but they have reflected the true picture of exactly what citizens of the two nations feel about each other. I am confident that from all the hurt feelings and charged emotions, Kenyans and Tanzanians can now begin to find a new way to relate to each other free of any hypocrisy.

    While that spirit is still alive in this blog, I think it is only fair that we Kenyans look inwards and start to tackle an equally thorny issue (which our neighbours have mentioned again and again in their comments on Kenyans).

    This is the way Luos relate to Kikuyus. It is widely believed that the members of these two tribes hate each other. Is this true? And if so why?

    Regular readers of this blog will know that I happen to be (very happily) married to a Kikuyu beauty (tena from the heart of Kiambu, am I a total man or what?) and therefore I have had the privilege of observing the house of Mumbi from very close quarters. I will speak my mind in the coming days.

    I also happened to have been born in Kisumu (although I am not from the Dholuo tribe). One of the closest and best friends I ever had was a Luo. We were very close and he happened to have also married from the house of Mumbi, a marriage that cost him his life (more on that later). I will however not spare the Luos either.

    I think this background qualifies me to be a good observer and referee in this blog. My fellow Kenyans, what can we do to solve this national crisis that everybody pretends does not exist?

    This Luo-Kikuyu thing, if allowed to continue will always impact negatively on the politics of the nation. I firmly believe that it needs to be addressed, let us start by honestly telling the rest of Kenya why it exists.

    ========================
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    posted by chris at 3:21 AM

    28 Comments:
    Anonymous said...
    Kumekucha, u going 2 far man.

    I enjoy hating those uncut, arrogant, lazy, brilliantly intellectual lakeside fellas. Who will stop at nothing to win the presidency. Remember Jaramogi begged Moi to allow him to seat on the presidency for just one day.

    Raila will stop at nothing (even a violent bloody coup) to be Prezo. It is as simple as that.

    Why spoil the fun kumekcuha? Stick to Tzs.

    Benji.

    9:22 AM
    Luke said...
    Hi Chris
    Once again, thanks for your most recent posts on this blog. As usual, i will introduce myself (avid reader of this blogg, faithfully following kumekucha, have made in the past numerous comments etc etc)
    Does anyone even remember why and what it is Luos and Kikuyus hate each other so much for and fight each so much for?
    I'm a luo and i can't remember (honestly though i don't know and maybe naively i don't want to know)
    Keep it up Kumekucha-this is a relevant topic

    9:39 AM
    chris said...
    @ Luke

    My dear brother, I know what you are feeling and maybe you have been hurt many times by what Okuyos have said.

    However it is important for the nation that both sides understand this thing and that both sides treat each other with respect.

    In 1958 when the first 8 African leaders were elected to the Legco (legislative Council - parliament in those days) Tom Mboya (a Luo) beat at least one Kikuyu candidate in Nairobi to win those elections. Guess what tribe the majority of voters were in Nairobi were?

    They were Kikuyu.

    So why did we go backwards at independence instead of forward?

    Because some Kikuyu land grabbers in the Kenyatta government were being outsmarted by young Mboya (whom they called Kihee secretly) that means uncircumcized, they decided in the name of security of the state to kill Mboya.

    Yet Mboya had done so much for Kenya to get indipendence, his own ambition not withstanding.

    That was the beginning of the Kikuyu/Luo saga. It was quickly followed by the incident in Kisumu where Jaramogi Oginga Odinga confronted Kenyatta. Some emotional Luos in the crowd (I am repeating this story from somebody who was at the scene that day in 1969) threw a chair at Kenyatta. One of his security people caught it in mid air before it hit Kenyatta. Then chaos. The security guys of the president opened fire on the crowd killing a number of innocent Kenyans (that is still a state secret).

    It then became in the interests of the Kenyatta administrtation to fan hatred with Luos.

    A good place to start is for the Kikuyu to apologise to the Luos for the sins of their fathers. And then the Luo have to make an effort to stop being so emotional, (you don't throw anything at the President).

    10:11 AM
    chris said...
    I know some Kikuyus reading this, like Benji will pretend that there is nothing that we are discussing here.

    But let me ask our Kikuyu brothers and sisters a simple question. Why is it in most cases when a Kikuyu reveals to their family that they are getting married to a Luo, there is trouble? WHY?

    Sorry I get a little emotional discussing this. You see my best friend was murdered in Nairobi two years ago. A guy walked into his office and shot him twice and then walked away without taking anything (he had nothing anyway). At that time he was having problems with his Kikuyu wife whose friends and relatives had convinced her to abandon him when he was going through a difficult time financially (Kikuyus always do that. So far the only Kikuyu I have met who deson't do that is my mother-in-law. She is poor but when I had problems she went to her shamba and brought us food regularly).

    It was clear that he (my Luo friend) was a hindrance as she enjoyed herself with a guy who had more chums.

    To date the murderer has never been arrested.

    My dear fellow Kenyans, my biggest ambition is for this Kikuyu/Luo thing to end. I will do anything...

    10:20 AM
    Vee said...
    I dunno where to begin... this always ends up being an emotional discussion for me.

    I'm a young, Kikuyu woman (from Kiambu) who consistently & constantly dates Luo men. I mean, am not entirely sure what the deal is but it's like I am magnetically attracted to them; and I can't begin to explain why I never feel even 50% of that attraction for my own tribemates. Yet I've heard some snickering comments from family members over how that won't work...the whole Luo/Kikuyu.

    I know a mixed couple that has a son and both grandparents didn't approve of the marriage. What happens now is that when the child is in Kikuyu country they call him Maina* and in Luo country Odhiambo*... the poor child is definately going to be very confused. Another couple I know got a child out of wedlock. The guy was told by his parents that if he disowned the girl and the child that they would continue to pay for his education and give him land (he is the Kikuyu so you understand the significance of land). The girl on the other hand was told bora she raises that child on her own rather than rely on a Kikuyu man. That was 4 years ago, they are still keeping strong after they've both been disowned by their respective families...

    So I join you on this question Chris... What can be done? If we don't handle the simple issue of how families relate to each other then DON'T EVER expect any sort of political understanding. It's sad that it is the 21st Century around the world but in Kenya we are still stuck in a time bubble called the 60s when a Luo threw a chair at a Kikuyu? We can't be serious!!!

    11:27 PM
    chris said...
    Vee, you always inspired me so, now I know why. It's coz you're from Kiambu...

    Just kidding (about the Kiambu part, and not about the way you inspire.

    After the Luo threw a chair at the Kikuyu, the kikuyu killed many Luos and after that the Luo has never trusted the Kikuyu again.

    And the Luo also sulked (wouldn't you after so many of your buddies were killed in cold blood and buried in one mass grave?)

    The other tribes found the Luo sulking and believed the lies and propaganda of the Kikuyu. That is why to this day Luos are said to be unreasonable and too emotional.

    And that's why some politicians are claiming that Luos are unlectable as President. What nonsense!!! (I know some kyuks will label this blog a Luo blog, just because of that last comment, so I will add the following rider). Raila may be unlectable mainly coz of his confessed activities of August 1982. But there are dozens of other Luos who should shrug off this label of being unelectable and stand for Prezo. I have a dream that one day the Prezo will be from Luo Nyanza.

    That is the whole sad Luo-Kikuyu story.

    3:12 AM
    Anonymous said...
    Have a small Q 4 u Kumekucha.

    R U Cut? Be honest man!

    A cut guy can not write these things. No way!!

    3:30 AM
    chris said...
    I AM CUT. But being cut is not being a man. Wangari Maathai is not cut but she stood where no cut man at the time would dare stand and because of her we still have Uhuru Park today.

    Courage has nothing to do with circumcision. Any coward idiot can walk into a hospital an have their foreskin cut off. It's happening to kids all the time.

    This must be Benji. The guy who always manages to be irrelevant at that critical moment...

    But now that you have brought it up, let's discuss it. How relevant is being circumcized when it comes to finding a good leader for Kenya?

    Let's face it head on. Kyuks always bring this up when they want Luos to shut up.

    Anybody want to comment?

    3:52 AM
    Luke said...
    Hi Chris
    As i said earlier, this is a relevant topic for me. Now i know a little about the genesis of the luo-kikuyu tribal issue-i never did before. I also wish to see its end . i never had-and will never have-anything against another kenyan-but i heard it all the time, and was raised up hearing it-and i see it in our society...
    It troubles me to think that someone else, having heard as i did all i heard growing up-won't feel the same way i do and will instead want to hate me, maybe even make life difficult for me
    e.g. i was away from home at the time of the referendum, and when i came back after it,i was shocked-from the outside looking in, i saw division-that is when everything i came face to face with all i had ever heard about
    i just want to be able to live peacefully side by side with everyone......

    5:12 AM
    Anonymous said...
    Chris you have a dynamite of a discussion here. It is commendable the way you fearlessly tackle hitherto biting, screaming "dragon" type issues. The reality on the ground is pathetically so. The Luo/Kikuyu 'hatred' percolates and infects our motherland.

    Please allow me to point out a few facts you should consider when attempting to dissect this tribal hydra. Remember that the Kikuyu social, political and economic policy was hijacked by the 'homeguards' and their kin. These Kikuyu imposters have thereon propagated their immoral methods of operation from the local to the national stage. This genesis is instructive. Note that the Kikuyu masses honestly acknowledged Raila as a njamba during the post '02 elections. Who muddled the waters after uhuru??? Who muddled the waters after the chair was thrown??? Who muddled the waters after we defeated KANU in ‘02???

    Secondly, the dynamics of this ‘hatred’ should not be perceived from the spectacles of petty bourgeoisie, urban based, armchair sitting, remote control cradling Kikuyus and Luos. If we are to objectively seek the reasons and forecast its development (or demise) you should obtain the attitudes/prejudices of the rural men and women - in both regions.

    Finally I think the opposite cultural positions of both tribes vis-à-vis each other has exacerbated the conflict. What do I mean? How easy has it been for the Kikuyu to shed stifling customs? How hard has it been for the Luo to shed stifling customs? Looking at both tribes you find two dialectically opposite cultural ideologies (if there is such a thing). I would even go as far as saying that in comparison to one another the Luos come out as ultra-conservatives while the Kikuyu can be perceived as ultra-liberals. How then can they co-exist with social and cultural outlooks that are polar?

    I look forward to reading your opinion(s) Chris.

    5:36 AM
    chris said...
    I did a quick small research with all the Kikuyus that I could find quickly. I asked all of them 2 simple questions.

    My questions were;
    1) Are you aware of the Luo/Kikuyu prejudicial hatred for each other?
    2) What do you think the cause is?

    Everybody I asked answered "yes" to the first question. To my second question, everybody answered that it is because Luos are not circumcised.

    This really surprised me.

    I believe that this is more evidence that this hatred has been fanned by politics and propaganda. The same Kyuks who talk about Luos not being circumcised will rush for mzungu men at the drop of a hat. Many Europeans do not circumcise. In fact guess how Hitler used to flash out Jews? Yep. They dropped their pants and the guys who were circumcised were bound to be Jews because most of Europe DID Not circumcise.

    Kumekucha.

    3:37 AM
    Anonymous said...
    Indeed Chris, indeed. The 'hatred' is based on a fallacy ie circumcision. The simplicity of this prejudice points at instilled propaganda. For a lie to succeed it must be simple, easily understood by capable and limited intellect. Thus the circumcision. If that is the symptom we can see that the malady has a source that is external and deliberately sowed.

    3:49 AM
    chris said...
    Now we are on the right track.

    The Kenyatta administration saw Luos as a serious political threat and chose the cowardly path of propaganda and falsehoods.

    It started with the whispers within the inner cabinet against Tom Mboya, they always called him Kihe (meaning uncircumcised). Mboya was circumcised and understood Kikuyu very well, so this was always done out of his earshot.

    When they had murdered Mboya, the next target was Jaramogi Oginga Odinga. Same simple strategy persisted.

    When Moi came to power he attempted to relaunch Jaramogi's political career, but powerful Kikuyu forces (that had supported Moi's ascendancy to the presidency, naively believing that they could take the presidency back at a later date of their choice like AG at the time Charles Njonjo) would not have it.

    After '82, Moi needed little convincing that the Luo were a threat to his administration and that "Kenyatta had been right all along."

    So the uncircumcised thing continued to be used.

    Kenyans need to apologise to the Luo community for national healing to start.

    My take is that the Luo may be labeled many things, but they are certainly NOT COWARDS!!

    I am not a Luo and I have no links with the Luo, but I weep for these sons of Kenya.

    4:10 AM
    3N said...
    I am not sure issuing apologies on either side will solve anything. What ails the two tribes is misinformed perceptions about each other.
    I believe the only way this hatred will be solved is through time. I do not believe that our generations of Kikuyu's and Luos hate each other as their fathers did.
    And those citing cultural differences would be advised to note that there are other tribes in Kenya whose cultures contrast yet they do not 'hate' each other.
    This hatred is purely a politicized cultivated one and only time will heal it.

    2:08 PM
    Anonymous said...
    Am neither a kyuk nor a jeng. But the Kikuyus are very subtle, and can never be trusted in a deal. Where there is a good deal they always have some thing up their sleeves. Be sure when you deal with one them you are dealing with a whole group of a clan. Theirs is a network strategically positioned. They never care taking advantage of others as long as they benefit. Clearly characterised in the dishonour of MOU in the last elections and in the referendum where they fully rallied in their favour drew sharp divisions that will take a generation to heal. IMO as long as distrust exist so shall the division be.

    5:08 AM
    Anonymous said...
    The hatred between the two is not culture conflicts but its all politicized since independence between Kenyatta and Odinga. I bet they are outdo each other over power and its not about to end up until a Luo is in power. Why is the ODM refered as a Raila thing hence the Luos despite having Kalonzo and Ruto who are not Luos?

    Ms Cart p

    5:19 AM
    Vee said...
    Well Chris inasmuch as I'm from Kiambu I've recently learnt that I don't look it. Which to me is a great thing; I don't want to be associated to my tribe because I am a Kenyan child.

    "What ails the two tribes is misinformed perceptions about each other." I agree with that 100%... therefore, now we've identified the problem, what can we do to contribute to the solution. Do we need a "RECONCILIATION: DHOLUO AND AGIKUYU FORUM 2007" or what cuts?

    Speaking of "cut" I can't even believe that is an issue anymore!!! Do people still get cut to fulfil their societal obligations or is it a necessity in terms of hygiene and increased sexual pleasure!? Educate me...

    11:57 PM
    chris said...
    This 'cut' thing is probably hygiene more than anything else, although if somebody remains clean, I don't really see a major issue here. In fact I am informed that uncircumicized gives better sexual pleasure.

    This whole Kikuyu/Luo saga is a study at how powerful propaganda and misinformation can be and the extent of damage that it is capable of.

    I think your "RECONCILIATION: DHOLUO AND AGIKUYU FORUM 2007" is a great idea that should be looked into more seriously.

    P.S. Luos have often come across as arrogant and violent and difficult to deal with, but where this exists, it is reactionary attitude more than anything else. It is defensive after all the years of abuse. I saw it in my late close friend. What he said and how he behaved sometimes did not reflect his true inner feeling. I am yet to meet such a caring human being.

    Kikuyus should remember how they behaved during colonial times when they were so opressed and treated unfairly. Wambui Otieno still behaves the same to this day. .

    2:37 AM
    Luke said...
    Hi Chris
    Wow!what a debate this has been!As a luo, i for one would seriously consider RECONCILIATION: DHOLUO AND AGIKUYU FORUM 2007-possibly the first of many more to come?because i don't assume this will be an easy and simple problem to deal with!

    However, my concern Chris is taken from a previous post of yours here in this blog-i am concerned that there are those who will view us (on the internet blogger forums) simply as a "noisy and opinionated lot"(http://kumekucha.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_kumekucha_archive.html) see "How Nation Columnist Gitau Warigi Describes You"

    Unfortunately,i've experienced this personally before-out in the diaspora where i'm temporarily based, i seem able to think differently and give expression to the same-however,the moment i'm back home, "something" (sick) happens......!

    I have no desire or wish for future generations to grow up hearing expressed (from me or anybody else) the same tribalist sentiments i heared growing up, about my fellow kenyan- who is simply just another human being like me!

    I'd relish an opportunity to change this aspect of living in my society and country!

    8:12 AM
    Anonymous said...
    As a strong beautiful Kikuyu woman in a relationship with a caring Luo gentleman, it doesn't matter to me whether we have issues in our communities. We do love one another and that is it.
    According to Dr Maathai in her book 'Unbowed' there were differences on settler farms as workers from all over the country converged there in a bid to join the cash economy and pay their taxes. On those farms, they did not live together, as the settlers decreed. As a result of observing one another, certain biases arose, Luo is like this, Kikuyu is like this, Kipsigis like that and so on. Such biases outlived the time and cemented themselves in the collective mindset of the people.
    Tom Mboya was a great Kenyan, so was JM Kariuki and Wambui Otieno, a freedom fighter and landmark case fighter. Dont forget the many who were detained together under torture. Ask them whether they suffered because they were of a particular tribe. Ask their mothers in Release Political Prisoners' Group.
    For as long as we shall have this Luo-Kikuyu issue, we shall never advance. Let us refuse to be roped into the yoke left by colonialism.

    6:58 AM
    uncle joe said...
    i just have one question why do luos like playing victims. that card is old.the truth is raila will never be president of kenya,or any member of his family .kikuyus have noting against luos just the odinga family .we would be happy to have a tuju presidency or an orengo presidency. but hooligans and psychophant relying politicians will never have kikuyu support.we believe in too much substance to get carried away in foolishness .that is the whole truth.expecting any free enterprising kikuyu to vote for raila odinga a liberal socialist maybe even communist is boaderline.

    9:27 AM
    chris said...
    @ uncle joe

    I also have one question for you. The Luo community voted Kibaki in 2002. Do you think if Uhuru or Kibaki supported a Luo candidate (it doesn't matter who, Raila, Tuju Orengo etc.) would the Kikuyu vote Luo in such large numbers?

    I highly doubt.

    From your tone, it would seem to me that you are a victim of the well orchestrated propaganda campaign from the Kenyatta days. All tribes have hooligans, not just the Luo. Kikuyu hooligans are even more dangerous than most, quite a number of them are fond of shooting motorists dead in Nairobi and elsewhere for no reason at all. Or raping our wives, mothers and daughters in cars that they hijack at gun point. These hooligans are widely refered to as carjackers.

    My brother, please do not approach this issue so casually. Let us rise to the ocassion, reject the propaganda of the past and build a new Kenya. History beckons and will judge us harshly if we don't take this opportunity.

    P.S. What happened to the Kikuyus who voted for Tom Mboya so consistently na roho safi in the 60s?

    8:54 AM
    UNCLE JOE said...
    @ uncle joe

    I also have one question for you. The Luo community voted Kibaki in 2002. Do you think if Uhuru or Kibaki supported a Luo candidate (it doesn't matter who, Raila, Tuju Orengo etc.) would the Kikuyu vote Luo in such large numbers?

    I highly doubt.

    SIMPLY BECAUSE KIKUYU HAVE A RECORD OF LOW VOTER TURN OUT EVENN FOR THERE OWN CANDIDATES VOTER TURN OUT IN CENTRAL IN 2002 WAS LOWER THAN MOST PART OF KENYA-CALL IT APATHY TOWARDS POLITICS MANY PEOPLE ARE TOO BUSY TRYING TO MAKE MORE MONEY-THATS WHY THIS TIME SOME PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO ENERGIZE THE BASE

    From your tone, it would seem to me that you are a victim of the well orchestrated propaganda campaign from the Kenyatta days. All tribes have hooligans, not just the Luo. Kikuyu hooligans are even more dangerous than most, quite a number of them are fond of shooting motorists dead in Nairobi and elsewhere for no reason at all. Or raping our wives, mothers and daughters in cars that they hijack at gun point. These hooligans are widely refered to as carjackers.

    TRUE- BUT THIS KYUK HOOLIGANS ARE NOT SEEKING POLITICAL OFFICE OR PRETENDING TO HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO RUN KENYA -YES!

    My brother, please do not approach this issue so casually. Let us rise to the ocassion, reject the propaganda of the past and build a new Kenya. History beckons and will judge us harshly if we don't take this opportunity.

    PROPAGANDA-if the new kenya you want is one where we all toe the odinga family line you can forget it. we will never go communist

    P.S. What happened to the Kikuyus who voted for Tom Mboya so consistently na roho safi in the 60s?

    THEY AND THEIR CHILDREN ARE STILL THERE WAITING FOR GOOD LEADERSHIP TO SUPPORT.TOM MBOYA WAS A GREAT LEADER ,SUBSTANCE,CHARISMA A TRUE KENYAN. AND AS SOON AS SUCH LEADERSHIP SHOWS UP WE WILL SUPPORT IT . -incidentally you are quick to forget that the odinga never agreed with mboya or shared his view of kenya .

    THE COMMUNISTS WILL NEVER NATIONALIZE OUR LAND AND TAKE OUR BUSINESSES

    12:04 PM
    chris said...
    Uncle Joe Said:

    "Kikuyus have noting against Luos just the Odinga family"

    now, now, is't that a telling statement?

    Does it not confirm all that I have been saying here?

    12:49 AM
    Anonymous said...
    Come slow bwana...Kumekucha you are propagating this Luo Kiuk non-issue. There are 42 tribes in Kenya of which Luos and Kuiks together do not form a majority. Further in all Nations/families ethnic/sibling rivalry exists. Looking at the larger picture what dogs Kenya is poor institutional framework to tame various forms of chauvenism, tribalism included.

    2:17 AM
    Anonymous said...
    Hi Kenyans,
    Kikuyus and Luos are two contradicting characters. History shows that Luos are typical fighters who are ready to shed their blood for the well-being of their country men. Evidence: Oginga said no independence without Kenyatta (compare with Mugabe/Nkomo conflict- unlike Odinga, Mugabe stole presidency from Nkomo). Oneko was castrated with Kenyatta in Kapenguria. Raila said Kibaki tosha. Ouko tricked EAC and brought planes, trains, OTC to Kenya. A Luo is committed to his entire Kenyan community. Luos say Kenya first, then Luoland, then comes dala (home).

    On the other hand, Kikuyus are also big fighters, but for their own benefit. Kenyatta murdered numerous Luos in KSM upto Awasi in 1969 (I survived at the age of 9), He ordered for the murder of Mboya (reasons are known), told Kikuyus to fetch money from banks (violently), Mama Ngina smuggled Ugandan coffee openly.
    Kibaki got to the Govt and supported Anglo Leasing, tried to introduce a bad constitution favouring themselves and contradicting BOMAS. His govt has supported corrupt scandals: Artur bros believed to be smugglers of the drugs worth billions, etc. Kibaki was respected as a Kenyan in Nyanza. The Luos gave him 99,9% of their votes. He never honered the MoU (as expected anyway).

    Generally Luos are very violent when some one is trying to take their freedom. They are ready to give up their privileges (Luo ministers risked or rejected their appoinments after 2005). A Kikuyu would have gone for the money. A Luo believes in nation building. A Kikuyu thinks only about his own pocket and doesnt care about others.

    My fellow Kenyans, let us learn from these mistakes. Kikuyus should not run after money like that. Money is not everything. Mungiki is a consequence of this greed. Kenya can only grow, when we all work together for our beautiful nation. Let us elect a new govt, whose leader will not entertain scandals like Artur bros, Anglo leasing and Goldenberg. Mwakenya.

    8:23 AM
    James said...
    Thanks a lot for all your contributions. But first before I get any deeper Tom Mboya was not a luo as most of us think. That wise guy was a Suba from Mufangano Island and by the way Subas are Bantus and Luos are Nirotics.

    N-way back to the topic “Tribalism” is real in Kenya just like Race is real in the rest of the world. There are Luos and Kikuyus who with the rest of other tribes make up the Great nation of Kenya. The question is, are you a tribalist or not? However that answers “NO” is a liar. All of us are tribal by nature. People are in ODM, PNU, or even ODM-K because one of their own is there or has been promised something. All these political parties are garbage made up of tribal leaders (Trash) who have personal interest at the expense of their communities. The truth is Raila is a liar, Kibaki is a liar - all politicians are liars… But Raila is a bigger liar than Kibaki.

    N-way I understand one thing however, Kikuyus, and Kenyans hate Luos because of what they are made to be by their Luo Nyanza King maker - and they let him use them. On the other side Luos and Kenyans envy Kikuyus for who they are. They have what most of us don’t and they are smarter than the rest of us coz they keep us (their enemy) busy doing nothing but thinking of how to counter them while they keep on working to benefit themselves economically. So who’s stupid?

    In other words there is “HATE” towards Luos and “ENVY” towards Kikuyus and this does not come only from the Luos or Kikuyus, but from all the rest of the tribes. The bottom line is – We are all tribal as a Nation, unfortunately that’s a reality that we can’t live without. Stop being politically and socially correct, live in a real world.

    11:13 PM
    Anonymous said...
    Dear people,

    I am not a Kenyan but after reading about the history and present turmoil of Kenya's politics, I can conclude that those of you who call yourselves either Luos or Kikuyu are indirectly causing the killings of humans.
    The people who have recently killed women, children, men, are lost souls and not afraid of the Almighty God who will one day show them their wrong-doings and will punish them unless they repent or as God pleases. I mean, how angry can a man be to axe someone as they run away from them. Or how evil can man be who takes advantage of the turmoil by raping mothers and sisters. The armed cowardly men just watch and let it happen.

    If people of today divide themselves into groups called Luos or Kikuyu, they are blindly believing in what their respected parents have taught them. For those of you who do not call yourselves peaceful Kenyans, open your eyes and don't be blind. Whatever wrongs were committed in the past is not your fault and nor should you take revenge as you think right. Revenge is evil. Two wrongs can never make a right.

    Many stories you and I have heard including the throwing of a chair, have stemmed from events that you truely do not know the history of because you and I are not God and so we do not know of anything as 100% true. Only God is the All-seeing and All-knowing.

    With these doubts, we cannot make accusations of any sort as it is not in our right. Whatever family you have been brought up in has told you biased tales. Please do not believe them all as a coin has two sides. Every time some of you say, Luos are enreasonable, emotional or unelectable or whether you say never trust a Kikuyu, you are being prejudiced, ignorant and foolish. Repent while you are alive for any slandering or hypocricy you may have done, as God is All-forgiving. Strive ahead in peace and harmony. A person who commits a murder, a loss of a life over politics, is destined for doom.
    Wisen up those who create divisions and good wishes to all those who want to end the violence. Life is too short to live in hate. We are all going to die one day and the Day of Judgement is closer than we can imagine - the Day when we shall be asked what we did in this world. We all need to say that we worshipped God alone, gave charity and did all the duties endorsed on us to the best of our abilities - we do not want to wake up to say things like, Luos were too emotional and Kikuyu's were untrustworthy. Come on people, lets all wisen up. Let the past be the past, and lets pray for the ones who have died both recently and for our parents who may have been wrongly divided due to some corrupt leaders. God is Most-forgiving.

    From a sister in Islam.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Dear people,

    I am not a Kenyan but after reading about the history and present turmoil of Kenya's politics, I can conclude that those of you who call yourselves either Luos or Kikuyu are indirectly causing the killings of humans.
    The people who have recently killed women, children, men, are lost souls and not afraid of the Almighty God who will one day show them their wrong-doings and will punish them unless they repent or as God pleases. I mean, how angry can a man be to axe someone as they run away from them. Or how evil can man be who takes advantage of the turmoil by raping mothers and sisters. The armed cowardly men just watch and let it happen.

    If people of today divide themselves into groups called Luos or Kikuyu, they are blindly believing in what their respected parents have taught them. For those of you who do not call yourselves peaceful Kenyans, open your eyes and don't be blind. Whatever wrongs were committed in the past is not your fault and nor should you take revenge as you think right. Revenge is evil. Two wrongs can never make a right.

    Many stories you and I have heard including the throwing of a chair, have stemmed from events that you truely do not know the history of because you and I are not God and so we do not know of anything as 100% true. Only God is the All-seeing and All-knowing.

    With these doubts, we cannot make accusations of any sort as it is not in our right. Whatever family you have been brought up in has told you biased tales. Please do not believe them all as a coin has two sides. Every time some of you say, Luos are enreasonable, emotional or unelectable or whether you say never trust a Kikuyu, you are being prejudiced, ignorant and foolish. Repent while you are alive for any slandering or hypocricy you may have done, as God is All-forgiving. Strive ahead in peace and harmony. A person who commits a murder, a loss of a life over politics, is destined for doom.
    Wisen up those who create divisions and good wishes to all those who want to end the violence. Life is too short to live in hate. We are all going to die one day and the Day of Judgement is closer than we can imagine - the Day when we shall be asked what we did in this world. We all need to say that we worshipped God alone, gave charity and did all the duties endorsed on us to the best of our abilities - we do not want to wake up to say things like, Luos were too emotional and Kikuyu's were untrustworthy. Come on people, lets all wisen up. Let the past be the past, and lets pray for the ones who have died both recently and for our parents who may have been wrongly divided due to some corrupt leaders. God is Most-forgiving.

    From a sister in Islam.

    ReplyDelete
  31. I think she is right. Yes tribolism was a little sugar coated and we might never know the violence and passion these people have but i cant help but agree that impowering the divide and there by forcing them to unite would benifit kenya emensly

    ReplyDelete
  32. wazza!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    WAZZA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete

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