HOW TO JOIN KUMEKUCHA'S CLUB1999 TODAY

HOW TO JOIN KUMEKUCHA'S CLUB1999 TODAY
Click on the image for all the information YOU need!

Friday, October 03, 2008

The Cut …even for Old Women

What is our country coming to?
September 15, 2008 started off as a normal day for Consolata Kathambi. But it was never to end pleasantly. The claws of a nightmare were just lurking somewhere in the shadows.

This 35 year-old mother of three was at her home in Meru District (in Kenya) when she was informed of an impromptu visit from some female members of her village. She was shaken a bit for this was a strange visit. There had to be something the matter.

When she got to the door to let them in, she nearly fainted when she beheld the numbers. They were more than she had “bargained” for.

They cut to the chase and informed her that they had come to “transform” her to a “real” woman. Before she could digest the gist of that statement, they continued to say that she, Consolata, was not a real woman for she was not “circumcised”.

This hit her like a thunderbolt. She tried to piece this information together in her mind, but it did not add up. Her husband had accepted her as she was, so what were these women here to do? This whole thing just did not make sense.

Even then, female circumcision, in her community, is not for old women but for girls (up to a certain age group).

Things went so fast for her comprehension. Before she could shout Jack Robinson, she was being dragged across the compound. She could not see where they were taking her for she was blindfolded. Her shouting and kicking did not help matters.

Her hands and legs were held firmly. When they got to the “opportune” place, they stopped and tied her hands securely. Next, her legs were spread wide apart. They were not bluffing, they meant serious business.

She was circumcised by this mob of ‘fire and brimstone breathers’. She experienced something that she had all along hoped and believed that she had escaped. But then, tribal edicts had caught up with her and she was stripped to the last piece of clothing.

My Two Cents: Female circumcision is cruel to women and we should do everything in our power to do away with it. More and more people should join in this war (of terror!)

About FGM:

Female Genital Cutting (FGC) and the Woman
An Inglorious Cut for Sure
The Female Genital Cut and its many Faces

76 comments:

Phil said...

Ritch, thanks for this.

Just out of curiosity, Why do they call it GENITAL MUTILATION in females and CIRCUMCISION in males?

What is the REAL difference?

(Disclaimer: This has got nothing to do with events going on in Kisumu and elsewhere).

Anonymous said...

because to "circumcise" is to make an incision around something, around a circumference. You don't circumcise females but you probably could if they had penises.

Kwale said...

All practices of female circumcision and mutilation are crimes and have no relationship with cultural or religious practices.

One of the reasons they give for this barbaric practice is prevention of promiscuity. They say once the clitoris is cut, it eliminates the motivating factor of sexual pleasure. What is wrong with a woman enjoying her God-given sexuality?

Quite right Ritch, I don't know if you are a man, but we men we need to stand up against this cruelty and allow women to express their sexuality as nature/God has intended.

Do you know in the United States, as recently as 1938, FGC was advocated by Reverend Oscar Lowry as a method of preventing female masturbation? But it was never practised!

You can count on me Ritch, on this war against terrorising women body!!

Kwale said...

This is what the contributors of this blog should be concentrating on, not some stolen elections that happened a century ago. The real issues facing ordinary people on everyday life and how to modernise our society! Can you imagine the impact this blog can bring to our country if we start campaigning for women rights and other graves issues affecting them? Just a thought.

E-cop said...

Hallo Bwana Ritch, long time,
Yet another example of outdated Kenyan practises whose sell by date is well past. the time has come to dump such archaic modes of expressing culture

tell me what is the point of staying true to a form of the past while totally missing its meaning now obsolete with the passing of time in the age we live? i'd better correct myself here though lest i get e-shouted at with the obvious-i know you can take the man out of the village but you can't take the village cut out of the man's mind

In the same vein some people still think its okay to deceive and lie their way into power where they chose to cling onto it at all costs oblivious to the LAICO price tag being paid by everybody else around them. Real issues facing ordinary people in everyday life are not magic for everything there is a cause and an effect don't shout at the symptoms treat the disease and teaching peace studies in schools is akin to reciting the pledge of loyalty in Kamiti prison TOO LATE

everything rises and falls on leadership stupid

Anonymous said...

Firstly I'm stunned to hear all this nonsense......and condem it fully...Its funny how we all switch positions for convenience......FGM and MGM are just two sides of the same coin.....


Many boys and girls have died in the process of both.....they are supposed to make adults out of youth.....culturally they served the same purpose.....have girls now been excused from 'becoming' women?

Unless we are trying to say God was not too intelligent creating us the way he did then both practices must be condemned in equal measure or at least be left for individual choice......

Why is it easy for people to see uncirmcised men as not men while uncircumcised women as OK if thats not duplicity then what is? Could it be that some male chauvenists accept this duplicity to prove that women are lesser people therfore should not be subjected to such 'manly' things like Genital Mutilation?


The cut is a question of personal choice and should be left at that.That means that women who want it should not be stopped nor should they be forced.
That is a real horror story.........

Sir Alex

Anonymous said...

Ritch,

Yes, female circumcision is cruel especially when some vigilantes think they have a duty to enforce it, and we should do everything to stop it.

The same should be said about the manacing vigilantes roaming in Luoland enforcing what they say is a circumcision order from Raila. Nyanza PC has warned that he may have to call for additional police.

This mentality that says that the mob's world view is better than the individual right to privacy and self determination is wrong.

It is the same mentality that made people rape and murder their neighbours because they chose to vote differently. This mob intolerance should be condemned in all its forms if our nation is count itself civilized.

Vikii said...

It is plainly wrong--actually criminal-- to imagine that women should be cut. That is the kind of barbarity that is, frankly, alarming.

It gets more stupid when we appoint ourselves enforcers of the beliefs we hold. This kind of violence is inexcusable.
Look here, as a Kamba elder, I am a firm believer in the male cut, I am not gonna deny it. But what I really dont get is the source of power some people have to tell others what to do. This is the same craze exhibitted by politicians who have just woken up and decided all males should be cut. Come on, it may be the right thing to do (and that is not debatable), but this is a decision that should be left to the individual. Likewise, if a woman CHOOSES to get the cut (which would be really dumb), then she should have that wish granted--especially by those with the guts to perform such archaism.

Now, people have accused us of being obsessed with the male cut. The truth is that this is a debate that was kicked off by those same politicians you guys adore. I dont understand why you do not attack those politicians when they give their views on this subject or the "Standard" when they report it on the front page everyday.

Is it OK to condone male circumcision and condemn female circumcission at the same time? I think it depends on where you take your cues from. I am a christian and I understand that Jesus Christ (he was not just another Jew, he is the son of God), was circumcized on the eighth day after birth. I do not know many women in the bible who were cut--at whatever age. That explains my bias, but unlike Raila, I will not force it down your throats.

Anonymous said...

Vikii, is back! did you go for the cut or you were on assistant mission in Nyanza?

Anonymous said...

Stop women mutilation and incest in central province(Kikuyu, \Meru and kamba) yani this guys have not learned to stop sleeping with their blood relatives??? shame shame !!

by the way when people don't have morals they act like Kibaki the thieving thug now kick backs on tanks destined for South Sudan?? when will this kibaki goon stop his thieving??

Anonymous said...

if healing is for real then to cut or not cut is not the question, anyone got the answer to this question? Heal /heel real/unreal?

Anonymous said...

Phil,

The term MUTILATION rather than circumcision came about with the realization that the practice varies in different communities. There are some that cut off just a small prtion of the female genitalia, while some literally alter the geography of the area by scooping out everything.
You have probabably heard of cases of women that cannot control the flow of urine or feaces because the entire region is MUTILATED.
I remember watching a clip about women who had undergone FGM ...everyone including men shed tears on seeing the misery these women have to endure after the ordeal.

Anonymous said...

Vikii, do you SATISFY your woman? being a Kamba elder do you need the blue pill to awaken you?

Anonymous said...

Piracy: What do these people know?

Updated 6 hr(s) 7 min(s) ago

By Cyrus Ombati and Agencies

Kenya is in the eye of global scrutiny over the real destination of the arms seized by Somali pirates in the Indian Ocean.

Questions are being raised on what exactly President Kibaki’s Government knows about the weapons that experts have insisted were destined for Southern Sudan in "an arms race with the North".

Kenya, whose role as mediator in the two-decade long Sudan civil war won global plaudits, has all along maintained the weaponry — that includes 33 T-72 tanks and artillery — belongs to its military.

But on Thursday, experts were questioning the actual role, if any, of the top military brass led by Chief of General Staff General Jeremiah Kianga in the controversial procurement.

They also sought to find out what Defence Minister Yusuf Haji and his predecessor, Njenga Karume, knew of the potentially embarrassing saga.

Just to underline the seriousness of the situation that the country finds itself in, a section of the international press was drawing parallels between Kenya’s perceived role in Southern Sudan and that of communist Cuba during the Angolan civil war — when they backed the MPLA.

Sources told The Standard that they had information on the involvement of two former Cabinet ministers last year in the procurement of the arms that the United States says were headed for Southern Sudan.

And as matters appeared to spiral out of control, top military officers held a meeting at the Department of Defence (DoD) headquarters to discuss the issue that has the potential of denting Kenya’s image abroad.

As we went to press, details of the meeting remained scanty.

The Nairobi Sudan People’s Liberation Movement/Army Spokesman Jervasia Okot said his Government imported "everything through the Mombasa Port, including heavy vehicles but not weapons".

The declaration appeared to contradict another that was made at the weekend in Khartoum by SPLM spokesman Byor Ajang, who was quoted by the Financial Times as saying the former rebels have "a right to import weapons without the consent of the North". He was referring to the National Congress Party partner in the 2005 Comprehensive Peace Agreement that ended two decades of war.

President Kibaki, Former Defence minister Njenga Karume, his successor Yusuf Haji and Chief of General Staff Maj Gen Jeremiah Kianga
Under the terms of the peace treaty, Southern Sudan is permitted to operate and fund its own military, separate from the national army. There have been reports that the South has plans to build its own air force, ahead a referendum in 2011, that could see its severance from Khartoum.

On Thursday, sources told The Standard that a Cabinet sub-committee on Defence, which President Kibaki chairs, could be planning a meeting to discuss the issue.

As this was happening, pertinent questions emerged.

One, when did the Department of Defence’s Tendering Board sit to decide on the procurement of the tanks and other ammunition?

Were trials for the tankers carried out before the DoD decided to buy the tanks? And if so, when was this done?

End-User Certificate

Were there soldiers sent to Ukraine to learn the operations and maintenance of the hardware? Who are they and their travel details?

Further, were procurement procedures followed? If so, were they documented? And who paid for the consignment?

Also, queries were being asked on the whereabouts of a mandatory Arms End-User Certificate to prove the Kenyan Government’s ownership of the weapons. The Government has, so far, only made public the bill of lading and other documents.

The End-User Certificate would have been required by Ukraine to sell the weapons to the Government and its production would clear all doubts of ownership.

Yet back in Kiev, the Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko was calling for an investigation into the destination of the weapons.

On Thursday, DoD Spokesman Bogita Ongeri asked for more time to answer the questions posed by The Standard. He later called back to refer us to Government Spokesman Alfred Mutua, who declined to answer any of them.

Internal Security PS Francis Kimemia and his Defence colleague, Nancy Kirui, asked not to be dragged into the debate.

"If the weapons belong to Kenya, would we not be interested in talking to the pirates to secure our weapons? Press reports show that foreign militaries and the international Press are in active contact with the pirates, why are foreigners showing more concern for the cargo of the Mv Faina than the Government of Kenya, which claims to have used tax-payers funds to acquire the cargo?" posed a governance lobby on Thursday. Sudan’s Ambassador to Kenya, Majok Guandong, said Khartoum and Sudan "has nothing to do with these weapons," and termed the US claims as baseless.

Sources have indicated that this was not the first consignment of arms for the Sudan —previous deliveries took place in November last year and January.

A senior military officer said he had information that more than 100 T-72 and T-55 Russian tanks had been received by Southern Sudan in the past year alone.

Other sources were quoted as saying authorities in Khartoum were re-equipping their armed forces with equipment from Malaysia, China and North Korea.

Southern Sudan has been buying Russian-made tanks over the last year, officials said, including nearly 50 T-54 battle tanks.

Attention was drawn to this in February when one shipment was briefly held up at Mombasa amid the post-election turmoil, agencies reported.

A former Cabinet minister, now an MP, has also been cited as part of the local syndicate that brokered the deal.

Vikii said...

10.56, I am a Kamba elder but I am not married. I chose not to until I am sure what is in it. The issue of me "satisfying my woman" (if it is sexual satisfaction we are talking about) does not arise because that would amount to premarital sex which I do not subscribe to. I don't have a woman to satisfy. Unfortunate? Maybe maybe not.

Anonymous said...

Circumcision both for male and female is backwardness which should be left for Jews and Muslims.

I dont want to offend anyone, but these cultures are very very conservative. African culture is more progressive.

Vikii said...

African culture? awhat do you mean by "African"? Certainly not what I understand it to mean.

Anonymous said...

Vikii, so you are a virgin? you are missing some good things my friend! There is nothing like making a woman scream between the sheets!

Anonymous said...

Most of Kenyans believe in God. I dont understand why someone who claims to be a Catholic, a Protestant, a Muslim or a Baptist should dare change whatever the Lord created.

As a scientist I really admire the optimization God did in our bodies and organs. There is no reason of changing the structure of any part of our body. Any changes to be done should only be done to repair the damaged organs or other body parts. Example bypass and other surgical measures.

What is going on in Kisumu is the biggest stupidity I have ever heard about. There is no research finding relating AIDS to Male Circumcision.

The problem with Luos is that they are total groovers. Even a poor Luo spends a fortune to enjoy life. These people dont give a damn whether a woman is sick or not. No wonder Kisumu is full with Kamba, Luhya and Kikuyu women. The Luos remind me of Italians. The only difference is that a Mzungu likes taking precautions.

A note to the LUOS: Dont support circumcision, it is backwardness. Protect yourself with condoms or just say NO.

A note to other Kenyan Women and men: It is high time you changed this barbaric act. Respect the creation of God. You have insulted your Creator for long. STOP FGM and MGM.

Anonymous said...

Hi Ritch long time, good post as always

remembering the serenity prayer

"God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things that should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other."

we have a direct input into the politics of the land through voting, lobbying, education, discusssion etc.

for events such as these (including other traditions such as male circumcision, lower teeth removal, killing a lion, etc) with deeply ingrained cultural roots and part of regional heritage, its not as easy and in fact any advice no matter how well intentioned or portrayed is largely regarded as interference or meddling by "outsiders" who "do not understand".

agreed and without a doubt the practice is barbaric but the question is how can we have an impact? roadside declarations or much heat on forums such as this. i think not?

best recourse is identifying lobby groups of which there are quite a few making significant in-roads working locally within the communities providing valuable education to the "die-hard" culturalists as well as viable cultural alternatives that preserve the rich cultural heritage but effectively addresses and removes the mal-practices in the community.

remember there is a whole lot of festivities and other processes leading to, as well as out of (or after) the specific act and many times "rescued would-be-victims" as well as their peers become lost on what next.

as always, although we sometimes get caught up in the details, as educated people, we need to go beyond the face value and find ways to not only deal with pertinent issues but to also try to encompass the full length and breadth of the issue and address the not so visible other pieces of the puzzle that quickly disconnect and sometimes dis-orient the beneficiaries of our noble intent.

UrXlnc

Anonymous said...

ritch

just to be clear, as the world progresses, individual choice and freedom to choose is a paramount human right.

if a 40 year old indvidual walks into a clinic for a cut (male or female) its no different than the same individual walking into a tattoo parlour or whatever.

the barbaric or savagery aspect is when there is forceful administration or elevated and unnecessary cajoling and ostracism many times of victims who are either unwilling or too young to understand.

UrXlnc

Anonymous said...

What about the government sponsored MGM going on in nyanza who will fight for the rights of those men fooled by a substandard research paper?,Is it possible that there are girls who desire to be katwad if so shouldnt we have a law that allows a woman to choose just like the men.

Kimi Raikkonen said...

We Africans have yet to come to terms with our primitivity and capacity for sheer barbarism. You see, we are simply incapable of facing up to and calling what such thoughtless, unthinking and animal like behaviour really is, and if you do, you are labelled hateful and arrogant. That is why we cannot even manage mere elections or civilised discussion. We are still brutal savages deep down even as we go to church, mosques, 5 star dinners, dress well, go to cocktails, drive and live in posh cars and houses, attend posh weddings and possess Phds. It takes only a little emotional spark to out the ugly beast.

Anonymous said...

I disagree UrXlnc. Some of these practices are handed over from generations and many people don't understand dangers and implications. Some of these practices are as a result of ignorance. E.g If you are a woman growing up hearing uncut woman is dirty (not clean), infertile, cannot bear children and all other nonsense then you are more likely to believe and undergo these meaningless brutal rituals. It's like people who like visiting witchdoctors when modern medicine is readily available simply because it had been handed over from previous generations. I think education comes into it as well as personal choice.

Anonymous said...

Vikii,

No offence, from your comments on kumekucha and elsewhere, I fully understand why no sane woman would want to have a man like you. I certainly wouldn't touch you with a mile long pole. (Kwale and Kimi are you listening?)

Anonymous said...

anon 1:04

embedded in my first comment is this paragraph

==
best recourse is identifying lobby groups of which there are quite a few making significant in-roads working locally within the communities providing valuable education to the "die-hard" culturalists as well as viable cultural alternatives that preserve the rich cultural heritage but effectively addresses and removes the mal-practices in the community
==

i then followed it with statement that ultimately it should be about informed individual choice

i beleive this last statement is what you disagree with.

there is a possibility that there are a lot of people/communities who have been misinformed and therefore their choices may be wrongly skewed in favor of a meaningless practice. that is true. i agree and education (social re-engineering as its popularly called) is vital

my two-fold point however is that

a) sustainable measures require buy in by the communities and its therefore important to have individuals or groups acceptable to the community leading these interventions, otherwise force-feeding them "alien practices" just leads to clandestine activities which become more harmful.

b) ultimately individual freedom to choose (yes even the wrong choice) is best policy but of course within the general or national policies and laws of the land

UrXlnc

b-carotene said...

Oh, just get off your high horses, you morons.

What gives you the right to stand in criticism of a culture you neither know nor understand? By what standard do you reach your judgements? What informs those standards?

One Mkamba condones male circumcision because he is a Kamba elder AND a christian, without thinking that the rationale under both belief systems might be in tension. And as if that were not enough the Mkamba goes on to rebuke female circumcision. What makes it unacceptable--the bible? Not the Ukamba? Such confusion!

And then the other one (Kimi)....such unparalled self-loathing. Go jump off the nearest building and spare us Africans your vitriol.

Let people practice what they feel they wish to practice for as long as they do not infringe on the prefences and freedoms of others, or cause others harm or break the law. Those individuals who seek to exit from whatever cultural practice they find abhorrent, dysfunctional, outmoded and so on, should be protected by the same law.

kalamari said...

Male circumcision is quite okay and even though I am a staunch libertine, female circumcision, by choice and or especially by force, is terribly not okay. It is bad and insane.

Following that, in an emerging banana republic like Kenya, Consolata’s tears simply drench the soil she stands on. Her cries enter one ear and come out the other.

Conservatively, she may have lived in a village of about one hundred adults; sixty of whom may be women. Kwale could attest to the truth of the matter but let’s say only ten already circumcised women participated in lifting her juu juu to the forest of the cut. Let’s also assume that of the remaining fifty, thirty were already circumcised and therefore apathetic, helpless or simply felt defeated. The question of the day is; where were the remaining nineteen uncircumcised women? Drinking sodas at the village kiosk?

You can almost forgive the forty men watching the spectacle in glee because, let’s be honest, some of these village folk are of a different genetic makeup. Yes, they are of a different species and as you know, you can enroll a monkey into Harvard but it will never learn to flush the toilet let alone sit on it.

What I’m saying is this; our Kenyan society is filled to the brim with disingenuous characters. We only scream of evils when the press is present. When they leave, we dash into our mud huts and huddle around a karuboi lantern discussing the day’s events in low tones all night. WE HAVE NO FIGHT LEFT IN US!!

It is no secret that the NGO’s charged with disrupting the prevalence of FGM conspicuously include in their main agenda, the siphoning of dollars and yens from donors. They are usually family businesses. Politicians will not help, especially those from Meru…..unless you want Kiraitu Murungi to laugh, infectiously, at how you cant circumcise a woman who has already been circumcised. So we only have ourselves. Yes fellas, ni sisi tu…..but that is actually the problem.

Now you tell me, is it truly beyond the means of the diverse and cosmopolitan residents of Kwale District to arrest the anarchy in Meru town? Aren’t some practices, cultural or not, just blunt wrong? When you see parking boys harassing a well dressed lady with some smelly brown ‘stuff’, don’t you usually cross to the other side of the street? We have lost the vigor to inhibit insanity in our society. How else can you explain the incidences of babies being raped in Malindi by Italians? We are truly a rotten people to the core. We are a people flagrant with dishonesty and vibrant with selfishness. There’s no fabric of society to talk about, In fact we are naked.

The major problem with Kenya is that their men have removed their balls and given them to their women, however, the same women do not have the space between their legs to hang them. We are fearful, extremely fearful, to fight for Consolata.

And here we are wondering why Consolata is shedding tears. I’m telling you fellow Kenyans, men and women alike, if you continue walking with your tails between your hind legs, your daughters will not only be circumcised enmasse, they will be sewn shut forever. And you know that means the end of propagating a Kenyan society.

….as Quagmire would have put it.

Anonymous said...

There is a doctor in France who has specialized in repairing the cut parts of women.

Guess who the patients are. African women with money, Turks and Arabs.

Many African men flock the clinic to seek re-planting of the foreskin.

Why mess with God's genious creation and then later seek reversability. Poor Africans!

Anonymous said...

FOOLISH KENYANS!!SINCE WHEN HAVE YOU ALLOWED THIS GOON BASTARD CALLED WETANGULA SPEAK FOR KENYANS???????

WHY THE HELL DO YOU LET THIS SON OF A BIATCH TALK FOR US KENYANS?? YES I'M KENYAN AND IF THIS IS THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER THAT CAN'T SEE BEYOND HIS NOSE THEN HE SHOULD NOT SAY HE IS SPEAKING FOR KENYANS!! AFTER ALL HE GOT HIS POSITION FROM RIGGED ELECTIONS AND HE SHOULD SHUT THE HELL UP... KIVIUTU AND HIS THUGS MUST STEP DOWN PERIOD!!

Kenya and envoys clash on ECK visas
Foreign Affairs Minister, Moses Wetangula. P

Anonymous said...

FOOLISH KENYANS!!SINCE WHEN HAVE YOU ALLOWED THIS GOON BASTARD CALLED WETANGULA SPEAK FOR KENYANS???????

WHY THE HELL DO YOU LET THIS SON OF A BIATCH TALK FOR US KENYANS?? YES I'M KENYAN AND IF THIS IS THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS MINISTER THAT CAN'T SEE BEYOND HIS NOSE THEN HE SHOULD NOT SAY HE IS SPEAKING FOR KENYANS!! AFTER ALL HE GOT HIS POSITION FROMN RIGGED ELECTIONS AND HE SHOULD SHUT THE HELL UP... KIVIUTU AND HIS THUGS MUST STEP DOWN PERIOD!!

Kenya and envoys clash on ECK visas
Foreign Affairs Minister, Moses Wetangula. P

Anonymous said...

Female circumcision if good for all women.

PS: I am female.

Kimi Raikkonen said...

B-Carotene, what makes you think you are more of an African than i am? The fact that you practice and admire meaningless primitive, savage rituals in the 21st Century? What LOGIC and VALUE is there in subjecting a 6 to 12 year girl to great excruciating pain in the name of making her a "woman"? Does transforming her into a "woman" now mean that you can sleep with her, which you probably do anyway, you pervert? You are PRECISELY the kind of ignorant, monumentally arrogant chest thumping mongrel African lost in the 16th century and totally out of his depth in 21st century earth i am talking about. You are NOT MAN ENOUGH to apply self criticism and admit some of our practices are just plain inhuman, you are NOT MAN ENOUGH to defend our young daughters from the clutches of barbarians, and you are NOT MAN ENOUGH to realize that some of our so called practices are incredibly stupid imbecilic habits.
People with your kind of mentality are precisely the ones who drag down everybody else to their primitive levels and it is why Africa will never develop as long as savages like you are not dealt with decisively and permanently. If it was within my power, and luckily for them i am not, i can tell you that i would hunt down and round up all the so called female circumcisers and feed them to the Tana crocodiles. Shooting them is too good.

Kimi Raikkonen said...

On another note, and for those buffoons still thinking that the ECK was sorely to blame for the election fiasco, please read this by the extremely bright George Nyamweya of PNU:

Q: Why should ECK not disband after investigation has shown it failed?

ANSWER: Not all investigation has shown it has failed. Reading the report of the Kriegler Commission, it says the problem in Kenya is not the ECK, but the people of Kenya who demand bribes and condone corruption and elect corrupt people as their leaders. Kriegler blames the laws, which incidentally the ECK has also been advocating that should be changed. For instance, they have been asking for financial independence so that they can computerise. They have also been calling for the review of constituencies to make their work easier. You cannot compare a constituency with 150,000 voters with one with 15,000. It takes a short time to tally votes in the small constituencies and the delay is interpreted as rigging.

QUESTION: Do you believe the ECK fulfilled its mandate?

ANSWER: They carried out an election and now we have a government in place. Their mandate was to conduct an election, which they did, even though not the way we would have wanted. The interpretation depends on which side of the political divide you are in. Those in ODM think it was bad because they did not get what they wanted while those in PNU were happy because their candidate was declared the winner.

QUESTION: How about the view that the public should not continue paying salaries of officers largely seen to have let down the country?

ANSWER: They should start by not paying the salaries of the President, the Vice President, the Prime Minister, MPs, councillors and judges. The issue is not about the 22 individuals who sit at ECK as commissioners, it is our way of seeing things as Kenyans. We have a very selective way of looking at things.

QUESTION: The ECK officials say they will only resign if the MPs also resign. What do you think of this?

ANSWER: MPs should be the last people to demand that the ECK commissioners resign because it is those individuals who declared them as duly elected. If they have no faith in ECK, they should never have taken up the positions in Parliament.

QUESTION: There are those who have interpreted PNU’s support for ECK to mean the party benefited from ECK’s inefficiency. Is that the case?

ANSWER: It is not the case. If ECK favoured PNU then it would have helped our parliamentary candidates. The ECK’s inefficiency actually helped ODM because with three million votes it produced 104 Parliamentary candidates against 85 of PNU with five million votes. The true beneficiary of the inefficiency is ODM and they are aware of that.

QUESTION: Do you believe the ECK did the best it could in the elections?

ANSWER: I do not think they did the best. They should have done better.

QUESTION: What is your suggestion on what should be done?

ANSWER: I have questions about the Ministry of Special Programmes handling this. In any case, at the end of the day, it is chiefs who deal with it. Maybe we should take the issue to OP or Ministry of Lands.

Vikii said...

b-carotene, you deserve to be ignored. I will put it back to your side of the court; What gives you the right to assign moronism? You don't decide who is moronic and who is not, do you?

Anonymous said...

b-carotene is mungiki

Anonymous said...

Those who are purporting to keep your Jackets on,keep them,Anyone forcing u to keep or remove?
But Aids will clear Nyanza and follow u them wherever with vengeance.
If u dont feel like being cut,dont!!who cares ...

Anonymous said...

FOR THOSE WHO DONT UNDERSTAND HOW DANGEROUS AIDS IS.

Aids is a bacterial war virus which Americans intended to apply on Russians.

The virus will find any passage in your body to reach the bloodstream.

Now remove your pants and check whether you have a hole through your pennis.

It is this hole that the virus prefer.

In other words, you will be infected whether you have the foreskin or not. I can assure you. Dont think in percentages. This disease doesnt choose.

For your information: The first Kenyan to die of AIDS was a circucised KIKUYU who was staying in London in 1986.

Another fact: South Africa leads in Aids cases in Africa. All of them are circumcised (Males and females).

Dont cheat yourself that it is because of the foreskin that the LUOS die of Aids. It is because of their lifestyle and traditions and maybe poverty. Wife inheritance is the engine behind Aids in Nyanza. If the gov would a serious gov, it would abolish this tradition.

-serious analyser-

Anonymous said...

EXCLUSIVE NEWS!!

Charity Ngilu is about to ditch ODM and merge with UDM as a coalition against ODM. The move is expected before the end of the year!

b-carotene said...

No, I am not Mungiki.

No, I am no more African than other posters here. I apologize if it sounded any other way.

To Vikki (you're right, just ignore me) and especially the harebrained Kimi. Look, yours is one world view. Why should your values be privileged over the values of others? Why should your values be shoved down the throats of others? Do you think they dont know that they feel pain; that they love to be in pain? They have practiced some of these things for very LONG periods of time. And you think you are the one coming to save them from themselves? Stop patronizing. Get off your high horse.

I think the relevant question to ask is what is the FUNCTION and VALUE that this cultural practice (replace with whatever condesceding descriptors in your lexicon)and whether some other practice, just as symbolic, can be done that will hold a close enough if not identical content and will be widely accepted.

You are truly a MORON Kimi. Just know that hurling insults, demeaning other peoples life ways and even holding a gun to someone's head, or chucking them into gas chambers is the most stupid of ways to try and effect change. You will meet the well known brick wall--always. Ritch's post is a tremendously helpful educator, pointer and I figure you missed his point, you retard.

I have to admit that am actually quite stunned by your attitude and really hope that your influence on public policy in Kenya is confined to your pitiful tirades in Kumekucha. Because, clearly, you are very poorly informed.

b-carotene said...

And just to remind (and for the record)--unlike you dimwit Kimi, sex is not something that preoccupies me, at least not with under-age children.

Vikii said...

b-carotene, you are equally poorly informed. I will not get involved in your little rants against Kimi, but I wil tell you why you are indeed the undisputed captain of the industry of moronism;

I want you to look at the comment you made at 2.10 and tell me what it is that you find different from mine. In the last paragraph, you talk of the need for people to respect the choices of others. That, little carotene, is exactly wha I think. It is exactly what I said.

I have given my personal view on the subject; that it is improper (again this is as far as I am concerned) to circumcize women and that it makes plenty of sense to circumcize men. The Mkamba/christian reference that seems to so inexplicably upset you was just a qualifier, some explanation about what shapes my opinion. As a crucial player in the council of elders and a devout Christian, I am naturally biased. BUT I have said that if women indeed choose to have their clits cut off, then they "shoud have that wish granted". (The word 'choose' is in capital, b-carotene). I have also questioned where people derive the authority to tell others what to do and gone ahead to pledge that I will not force any belief down anybody's threat.
I thought that was exactly what you are rooting for in your not so intelligent rumble. I could be wrong, though.

Anonymous said...

b-carotene

i quote

"Why should your values be privileged over the values of others?"

thank you

that aptly sums up vikii, kimi, kwale, deroo and a few other attitudes that have deluged this forum for a very long time

Anonymous said...

b-carotene, if you are not a mungiki then tell us why you support female cut.

Abass said...

There is a difference between circumcision and FGM in female. Whereas FGM involves mutilation and can be dangerous, circumcision in less harmful, more or less like the female one. I think it is important to differentiate between normal female circumcision and FGM. The talk about it in a sensational manner by using the word 'mutilation' in a bid to lambaste any form of female cutting. I am firmly of the opinion that dangerous cultural like FGM should be banned but not against the other harmless forms.

Anonymous said...

Clearly from reading this discusion between Kimi, Vikii, B-carotene i can see b-carotene has completely missed the point and seems to get himself upset for nothing. What is wrong being a Mkamba and christian I may ask? on the other hand your rants on Kimi are unfounded and you seem to have a problem somewhere.

Anonymous said...

Vikii, Kimi, don't waste your time on b-carotene. Yeye ni shoga. One of those who get sahfted in the ass and feels everyone is against them.

Anonymous said...

b-carotene

do you see how these ODM-haters react to a different opinion they all come out to abuse the contributor but actually say nothing.

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:14,
If we don't deal with this b-carotene now, next he will start lecturing us about his sick homosexual lifestyle and how we should accept his preference.

UrXlnc said...

kimi

have you read this article

http://www.eastandard.net/InsidePage.php?id=1143996301&cid=4&

Anonymous said...

urxlnc,

The standard has outperformed itself. Its gone below kumekucha on hearsay and spread of hate. They did it last year - they have gain started. God forbid.


Wewe ni mmoja wao?

Mzee

Anonymous said...

Whats wrong with the standard newspapers. Why could they not share what they know with Kriegler. Anon 2:37 - i fully agree with your sentiments. Standard is becomh a gutter press. Watch this space

b-carotene said...

Calm down y'all lest you pop a vein. It's just me, a minority on this, against all of you (airheads).

Doesnt it strike you how intolerant of different views you all are? Aren't you bothered by your tyrannical, undemocratic tendencies? Just think about it, rationally--dehumanizing someone else just because they do things differently from you (or hold a different opinion from you) is unlikely to persuade them to change. Take that to the bank.

Meanwhile, the rest of you esp those calling others shoga (whatever that means) can simply go to jahanam. As for those who have reached conclusions re my position on female circumcision....well....to jahanam with you too!

UrXlnc said...

mzee @ 2:37

as much as i appreciate the news/rumours/discussion/ and sometimes incoherent garble that constitute kumekucha, no matter how much we like or dislike the regular or formal press, they are not in the same category. As professional bodies they are subject to a little more credibility and so I would only agree with you when i see a stampede of civil suits for slander, defamation, and the likes. Like Murungaru and his cat & mouse with Githongo

at this point i cannot find any reason for whether or not it is hearsay or rumour. I will wait for more information/revelation and possibly evidence.

Kwale said...

I cannot understand why some people are taking this issue of FGM so lightly.

Do you in UK, it is a criminal offence to carry out any procedure that involves any form of female genitalia mutilation or circumcision?
It's also an offence to assist a girl to mutilate her own genitalia and it is also an offence to assist a non-UK person to mutilate an overseas a girl's or woman genitalia . All these offences carries a maximum 14 years in prison and a fine. There is also a bounty of £20,000 (2.6m Kenya shillings) for anyone with any information that will lead to arrest of anyone involved in this barbarism. UK is one the most democratic, the most libel a society can get, but they have clamped down hard on female circumcision so much so if an African girl travels out the UK , she must be checked by a doctor first and on her return she must also be checked again to see if she had undergone circumcision. That's how serious they take this issue. But for male there is no law, if a man wish to have circumcision it's completely legal.

UrXlnc said...

kwale

would you be in a position to discuss in detail the rationale and process behind the decision by the UK govt and the process leading to this or these laws.

kenyans are increasingly more educated and informed it is therefore more important to outline the reasons and processes more than quote other country(s) preferences no matter how advanced or backward they may be or even if the end result is beneficial. i can assure you kenyans no longer just ape for the sake of it therefore understanding the process and reasons makes it easier to adopt or apply any good suggestion.

Anonymous said...

this article has been submitted to amnesty international

UrXlnc said...

BTW kwale

i forgot to mention that i cannot even begin to imagine what law justifies a woman's genitalia and dignity being violated on exit and entry of any country. that is an assertion i find extremely hard to believe.

Kwale said...

UrXlnc,

Since you don't believe me, it is called Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003 (c31)

And here is UK govt website, you read for yourself.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2003/ukpga_20030031_en_1

And every fact I have detailed there on my comment is back by these links, read more: It is a taboo to mention FGM in UK.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3528095.stm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/pound20k-reward-aims-to-stop-female-circumcision-456803.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1033732.stm

A point to note, this law target mainly African immigrants.

Kimi Raikkonen said...

B-Carotene, your bovine stubbornness and primitivity is epitomized in one single sentence:

"....Do you think they don't know that they feel pain; that they love to be in pain?..."

The above just about sums up your mental status. Can a 6 or 12 year old be expected to make an informed decision on whether she loves pain or not, or that undergoing the excruciating pain transforms her into a "woman"? As a father, you would just stand by and do nothing even as your daughter screams her head off as she undergoes the procedure? Have you no pity whatsoever? What kind of African man are you indeed? Who or what gives another human the right to determine that you can mutilate a child's genitals in order to make her into a "woman"? Where do you get off calling others morons?
I am not going to continue arguing with a primitive like you any more otherwise "Nitamaliza Kuni kwa kuchemsha mawe".

Kwale said...

UrXlnc

Right. Yeah. "Kenyans are increasingly getting educated" No one doubts Kenyans ARE very educated but it is just on a piece of paper that's all. When you get some people who still believe this barbaric practice of FGM is ok, then you should know you have a long way to go. No matter how educated you may think you are, you live in a Banana republic! Which other country do you have foreign diplomats interfering with another sovereign country's affairs? It can only be in Kenya, where Foreign diplomats tell the government what to do! The job of diplomats is to represent their country in a different country inorder to strengthen the ties between the two countries, and according to UN agreement they are not supposed to engage in another sovereign country affairs. But here in Kenya we have diplomats mouthing us off with all kind of threats. Have you heard a Kenyan ambassador to UK or US or Japan telling those government off?!
You think you are free but Kenya is not yet free!

I could go on to show you how Kenyans are messed up but I wont, there is no space.

Kwale said...

UrXlnc

I forgot to tell you France is even worse on FGM offenders. The crime is actually called GBH- grievously bodily harm under Article 312 of the Penal Code.

GBH is classified as second to attempted murder in most European countries. So a female circumciser is treated in the same category with attempted murderer.

In France, they have almost eradicated the practise among African immigrants.

If you understand French I can send you links of some serious crackdown and sentencing in France.

Anonymous said...

P.S, N.B...
THE STANDARDS' UNTOLD STORY OF 2007 POLL IS...
"AND YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH & THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE"
YES, IT HAS BEGUN, THE TRUTH IS BEGINNING TO COME OUT: )

b-carotene said...

Kimi:
You are a pathetic idiot with a major inability to reason.
Just answer this question: WHY does circumcision persist today? If it is SOOOO bad, WHY does it persist? (a side question to Kimi: if female circumcision were conducted under general anaethesia--would it be more acceptable to you?)

It may be outlawed in the advanced democracries, but it is still conducted in the US, Canada etc...IN THE UNDERGROUND, even among well exposed and increasingly educated people. WHY?
In the same vein, it persists in Kenya even among Merus who are not entirely at the bottom of the rung with regard to education, economics, religion and overall exposure.

For as long as you dont address the circumstances UNDERLYING a cultural practice,i.e. the traditional norms and rules that motivate its existence, legislation, even in countries that abhorr such practices, will not automatically and immediately eradicate them. Neither will attempts at dehumanizing those that practice it. You will meet that brick wall that I mentioned earlier. This cannot be overemphasized.

Lastly, to Kwale and anyone else who thinks that mindlessly grafting institutions from the west is THE panacea. If it were, most of the world would be one, well-oiled, throbbing, democracy--liberal, social, whatever variant. But many of us are either clueless or just choose to ignore the differences in underlying norms and structures that underpin societies thinking quite simplistically that grafting western laws and policies is the way to go. Perhaps we do need to be a tad more thoughtful than we are. I think that's what Urxlnz(ero) is getting at.

Now, I do not favor female circumcision at all--the physical act I find abhorrent. But I very much like the training in life skills, in life ways, in interactions etc that many such transitions have to offer. I like the welcome that it signals to an individual--a welcome to a another part of life, and a welcome that is conducted by one's kin and their community. True, the western human rights tradition is absolutely valuable, but I also hope that we do not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Thanks Ritch for starting this conversation on female circumcision. If you ignore Kimi's insults, you will find that it was a rather productive conversation.

Kimi Raikkonen said...

UrXlnc, who takes the EA Standard seriously anymore? What is their headline "investigation" in aid of anyway? Nobody with a modicum of common sense will take it into account so whats the use and whats their agenda? Or are they deliberately just trying to stir things up and to stoke and fan tension? To what useful end when all signs are that such actions can only end up plunging Kenya into grief? Moreover, their so called investigation reveals no useful facts whatsoever, just stupid rumours. For example, they claim they have an untold story but the only people they directly quote are the watchman who mans the gate at KICC, and who supposedly knew that Kivuitu received a phone call after locking himself up in his office for 1 hour before he left and then went on to announce the results. What was the watchman doing outside Kivuitu's office for 1 hour instead being at his station? Secondly, how did he know that Kivuitu had received a phone call if indeed Kivuitu had locked himself in his office? Did he have his ear to the door and if so where were Kivuitu's security guards? So much does not add up that the story can only have been made up to fire up ignorant ODM fanatics to take to the streets.

Anonymous said...

4:00 am, AKA KIMI;
Brace yourself, there's more to come.
P.s I sense panic in your "underlying" tone. Hmmm, I wonder why?
PNU THE CONSEQUENCES OF FRAUD & DECEPTION ARE BECKONING...(FAST)

Kwale said...

b-carotene, I fail to understand what you are at. I also find your comments very contradicting and confusing. Either there is something sensitive this article has touched in your life or you are a complete mug. What you don't understand this is not just a "cut" or infringment on ones' culture but there are some serious health implications to this outdated practice. In France, the authorities were alerted by hospital teams after they began studying the high incidence of caesarean section and difficult labour among women of African Immigrants.
The French govt states very clearly they are not against anyone culture, but it is in the interest of child protection and preservation of human right and dignity they feel the need to act swiftly against FGM and eradicte it once and for all.

May I also inform you, a similar kind of topic to this one was discussed recently on online UK daily mail after a Somali girl was forcibly circumcised against her will in a London flat. The paper carried the story similar to what Ritch has done here; the only difference are the comments.

Read the article for yourself and more importantly all the 32 comments that followed. At least here we have more than 60 comments.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-505796
"The-unspeakable-practice-female-circumcision"
or

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-505796/The-unspeakable-practice-female-circumcision-thats-destroying-young-womens-lives-Britain.html

The way you think and see things is completely different from the people of develop world.

b-carotene said...

Kwale:
Can you point out my inconsistensies? I am arguing that while I do not like the practcie of FGM, we need to dig deeper and more carefully to weed it out.

A lot of data may have been brought to bear on this,that may or may not be disputed scientifically, including a lot of ethnocentric views and racist prejudice. But the question you have refused to answer is WHY does it persist? Cui bono? Sadly, no one is touching on that question, preferring instead to regurgigate some ethnocentric view or other, burying their heads in the sand.

What does a Somali in Somalia or Kenya think? Why do they practice it? Why does a rite of passage HAVE to take that form? Can it take another form but have the same or similar content?

I am thinking in a much more nuanced way than any of you here can ever hope to and I accept the vilification. I just feel sorry for you pathetic idiots who think that throwing money, insults and law at a problem steeped in culture and tradition, and inevitably a DIFFERENT world view from that which informs the human rights dialogue, will solve it.
GOOD LUCK!

Anonymous said...

Noboby else in the world will change the culture just receive few dollars from the whiteman surely African culture should be protected at all cost. Islam & Christianity have dismembered our heritage long before the arrival of NGO's and affarmative action. circumcision,fgm or whatever they call it is part and parcel of who we truely are us AFRICANS.

b-carotene said...

Kwale says:
"The way you think and see things is completely different from the people of develop world."

This may be true or not but it is an important statement and I care enough to respond to it.

I think I do understand them (the people of develop world) quite well, and measure for measure have out-competed them in their own setting in activities designed by them and which many have accepted as the way forwards towards excellence, prosperity and enlightenement.

But unlike you, I interrogate what they offer, rejecting what I find does not hold up and respecting what works.

That is the difference between you and me, Kwale. I am a little more critical. Try it--you wont die!

Kwale said...

b-carotene, you asked, why does FGM persists?

Simple, lack of knowledge and ignorance! Have you had the statement "People perish because of lack of knowledge".
These people practice these barbaric rituals because they are ignorant and lack knowledge. Period!
How can you make a woman a "woman" by mutilating her genitalia ?

Grassroots awareness and education is needed in Kenya urgently! Unless you educate people the dangers of these practices, they will continue to practice them. If somebody convinced you to go to hospital when you are sick and not to witchdoctors, surely someone can convince them it's totally meaningless to put a woman under unimaginable pain in the name of making her a "woman".

b-carotene said...

Kwale:
Sure, it could be ignorance, and anything else under the sun.
But I know two things for sure.

One, that this conversation on female circumcision is not new--it was the rage through the 90s. Just screaming louder or hammering harder will unlikely disappear it. Let's try to be smarter.

Two, I will be the last one to support you and all those anti female circumcision advocates as I really doubt your sincerity--after consuming all the money through the 90s one would have expected somewhat different outcomes today. So no, I will not support those wishing to continue to line up their pockets on this issue, not unless they change their approach and dig deeper.

I'm done with this discussion.

UrXlnc said...

kwale

i did not doubt the law, my doubts were that women are supposed to submit to inspection on entry and exit. that is a demeaning practice. if indeed its being practiced then its very unfortunate to these women to suffer the indignity even if its for their own good.

but thanks for the links to the relevant laws.

the kenyan public is far more informed and educated i have no doubt in my mind. and i maintain and no doubt you agree that most sustainable interventions are those which involve buy-in of the communities through education and community outreach activities.

Kwale said...

UrXlnc, Maybe I did not make myself clear. There is no inspection at the point of entrance or exit. This part of the law target school children during school holiday who maybe taken abroad to have this FGM procedure. This idea originally came from France aimed to stop school children taken out of the country during school holiday. As you maybe aware most British schools like French schools have health visitors who come to school once or twice a week to check the well-being of school children and it is during this time Kids mainly from African background are interviewed if there they have any holiday due and when.
In France where the law is much tougher the kids are subjected to rigorous checks and if found to have gone through the procedure the parents pays vey dearly and in some cases, their rights to live in France is revoked.

Eric Nyaga said...

Mass male circumcision in Luo Land: Political Angle - Today, 10:29 AM

* 0
*

Small clinic owners have had a reason to smile since the PM and a group of medical experts toured Luo-land a couple of days ago. The opportunity he has been waiting for many years has finally arrived, to position his people for "canaan". Hey! Don't you read where I am arriving at? Let me help you see what most of us will take ages to see. this "cut" campaign has a political dimension that is heavier that the health one. Even the Luo themselves are currently blind to the political angle but will see it later and be forever thankful. The Luo male has been demonized for this single reason. Thankfully this time round they have a smart regional chief who sees a century ahead. The Luo have had all other qualifications to wield political power; they've got intellect, unity, numbers & energy. The "cut" factor was the only obstacle standing between them and the throne denying them national-wide acceptance. Now that it is out of the way you wait and see. Talk about a Political genius of all times!

-www.nyaga.tk

Anonymous said...

kwale

i begin to see some of the rationale plus your last comment makes a lot more sense. it initially sounded highly discriminatory and terribly subjective or oppressive but evidently its the details that were scanty and there is probably more information than can be published here in this forum so am content with that. no further explanations necessary.

main thing i was concerned about is that the dignity of our sisters/daughters/mamas etc is not being violated to suit some inexplicable law but that is not the case.

UrXlnc

Google
 
Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...