Sunday, August 24, 2008

Kumekucha Weekend Special: Why A Handful Of Kenyans Are Not Having A Good Weekend | Chris Murungaru

Shortly before the 2002 general elections if you were a frequent person along Moi Avenue in Mombasa or Digo Road you would not have failed to observe a rather fascinating but obviously very determined man going about his business in the sweltering heat.

He was burly and very tall and therefore difficult to miss. He could be seen heavily laden with pharmaceutical supplied moving from one chemist shop to another hawking his wares. Obviously he was not accustomed to the humidity and heat of the coastal city because he could be frequently seen wiping sweat from his face, quiet often removing his spectacles to do so.

Dr Chris Murungaru

Many of the pharmacists who out of sympathy gave him a few orders here and there were shocked when just a few months later that same man was named to one of the most powerful cabinet dockets in the brand new National Rainbow Coalition government of President Mwai Kibaki. The “hawker” became the minister in-charge of Internal security and was even captured in the media inspecting a guard of honor at one time.

That man’s name is of course Chris Murungaru. A man who will go down in the history of Kenya for the sheer speed at which he moved from pauper to multi billionaire. It is no secret that just a few weeks to the general elections Murungaru was playing hide and seek with auctioneers.

Now that man who is no longer the legislator representing the good people of Kieni burst into the news again this week. Apparently he is trying to serve summons to former ethics PS John Githongo in a 2006 defamation suit that has never gotten off the ground because efforts to serve Githongo have always failed. On 22 January, John Githongo named Murungaru as one of three top politicians involved in scams worth $600M in what is referred to now as the Anglo Leasing scum. The other two Githingo named were Kiraitu Murungi, former justice minister and present energy minister; and former finance minister (now out of parliament) David Mwiraria.

But to observers the really fascinating thing about Dr Chris Murungaru’s latest antics this past week is the boldness with which he has attracted attention to himself. Those who know him well say that the pharmacist has always been a gambler in life. But even so this latest gamble must surely beat all the previous ones. To start with the man has failed to read the mood in the country at the moment. Then he has drawn battle lines even before anybody has mentioned his name, meaning that he has forced the hand of those who must have some very damaging evidence against him. More than anything else Murungaru’s latest move illustrates just how high the stakes must be.

Admittedly Murungaru is a survivor and is obviously prepared for a long drawn out battle here. Many wrote him off when on February 17, 2006, the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACA) took Dr. Murungaru to a Nairobi court charging him with failing to declare and account for his wealth. The Commission’s view was that Dr. Murungaru became too waealthy too quickly and had been investigating the source of his wealth, especially in relation to the Anglo Leasing Scandal. He denied refusing to declare his wealth, and was released on a bond of Kshs 200,000 after an embarrassing wait right next to the stinking police cells at the Nairobi courts. On December 1st 2006, the High Court determined that KACA's notice to Murungaru was not carried out according the laid down law that subsequently led to the High Court quashing KACA's case against Murungaru.

Let us for a moment put ourselves in the shoes of the good doctor. What would you do if you knew that your time for being exposed was nigh? Would you just sit quietly and wait for what was coming to you? That is quite unlikely and not Murungaru at all.

Most probably you would come out both guns drawn and firing. That may mean that Murungaru is going to use the information he has to cause “leaks” of various scandals involving numerous characters right across the political divide. This is what is causing so much fear amongst the political elite. It is the inevitable chain reaction from all this.

Indeed the minute Githongo landed at JKIA, it is like somebody dropped some highly volatile compound into some simmering acid.

Some of the “leaks” that we should expect will involve top notch personalities within ODM. All in all I can authoritatively tell you that quite a number of Kenyans are not having a good weekend at all.


Read also;

24 comments:

  1. Bwa ha ha ha ha ha

    chris, you promised a while back to reveal how corrupt individual in ODM wing got their wealth. I have been waiting but it seems you read the 'moods' and now you are back with of course mount Kenya bashing.

    come one chris, are you too scared of talking of corruption in ODM or is it that ODM corrupt barons are now sacred due to their political orientations???

    thanx for the hilarious article though...i wonder how a pharmacist can be a hawker you say..but thanx for trying

    ReplyDelete
  2. Chris is still hawking raw
    notes and selling email addresses to Nigerian scam artists.

    seems all chrises are scams

    ReplyDelete
  3. The way you go on and on about corrupt kikuyus is as if no other tribe is corrupt.What else do you expect from such a large community?By their sheer numbers you must find one of them excelling in something be it good or bad and thats why you see them produce Sammy Wanjiru's and Catherine Ndereba's to take pride of place alongside Kalenjin athletes

    ReplyDelete
  4. I am lost Chris. Hii weekend special yako imenipoteza!

    You have made Githongo's return subject of your two articles this weekend "Why a Handful fo Kenyans Are Not Having A Good Weekend". The information you give is not new; but in both articles, the people you mention are PNU damu. So, whats this obsession you have with ending the same articles with the line that someone or some people in ODM, so far unnamed, could be implicated by Githongo??? Why not name ODM people as well???

    Githongo was last privy to corruption information on Kenya Government in 2005 when he resigned and fled into exile. Even then, he had only served as governance PS for a year or two. So this Anglo Leasing deals could well be storms in a tea cup.

    Personally I do not see anything "earth shaking" about Githongo's return. Even before he took up the anti-corruption mantle, John Harun Mwau had been there and went as far as making a move to arrest senior government officials (over sugar importation) before Moi sacked him! Mwau did not move to self imposed exile although the KANU corruption networks then were and still remain more powerful than those thriving Kibaki's rule. So whats the big deal about Githongo's return? Yes, we certainly would like to know who the Anglo fleecers are. Yes, we would like to know if indeed he recorded President Kibaki in any of his tape recorders...but as Kenyans we know there have been other equally big scandals exposed by whistle blowers so I do not understand what the fuss Githongo return is all about. There's is every risk that whatever he has left could well have been overtaken by events, in other words - time barred!

    Githongo could be mistaken that this country was waiting for him when he was in exile. People have moved on...this is not a NARC government but a grand coalition that is fast working towards establishing a TJRC. As soon as this is done, Githongo will loose relevance - not that he has any in the first place.

    We are told Githongo is the only Kenyan to have looked the other way while other government officials were feasting, and for that reason - he is qualified to be president of this country. I will not disqualify him, but nitagonja ajibwage uwanjani so we can really see what he is made of. Assuming that he will join Paul Muite's PROPA, I think Githongo would have great difficulty being elected an MP in any of the eight constituencies of Nairobi, let alone president.

    PS. Anonymouses above... I dont think post has anything to do with Mt. Kenya bashing...ati even the athletes are being categorized into tribe...what nonsense! it will be up to you guys to get rid of your paranoia...haitu saidii.

    PS. Chris, I am waiting for you to tell us the names of the topnotch personalities in ODM whom are implicated in corrupt deals. I bet you dont have any names! Prove me wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Phil, is this really you writing such a logical article? What has happened? Was your breakfast or lunch that good?
    The questions you ask Chris about Githongo's relevance and value are very apt. Are you going to keep it up?
    To be sure, i agree with you that Githongo has been given more prominence than he deserves but you need to caution the PM who i gather you are close to not to overvalue Githongo's use to him. The fact is that Githongo has no compelling political value for Raila and is fast losing credibility. What do i mean?
    When a guy like Githongo postures as a moralist and then does the very opposite by being dishonest, he loses his moral compass. Why hasn't he revealed all he knows if he was really fighting corruption? What is he waiting for, or better still, what is his secret agenda? Secondly, why does he purport to take sides against one side(PNU) and not the other(ODM)? If you want to be a moral crusader, you should take inspiration from Mandela or Gandhi, not from Kenyan politicians.

    ReplyDelete
  6. kimi

    i agree providing information piecemeal is also some form of corruption, its either a total expose or forget it and as phil says the information can easily become irrelevant or overtaken by other events. if there is anything left in those closets then it needs to come out yesterday.

    BTW we cant fight corruption if we include party affiliation. lets just put the names across together with their misdeeds, those guys did not loot on behalf of their parties nor were they "sent" by their parties to loot. you can also replace party with tribe or region.

    it is also very worrying the talk about general amnesty for these crooks, what message is being sent out, that looting is ok if you can evade the law?

    UrXlnc

    ReplyDelete
  7. Kimi,

    I have not changed one bit. Lunch was good, my favourite matumbo fry, kunde na ugali.

    Its either Chris will name this ODM topnotch in Githongo's dossier or stop making wild unsubstantiated allegations against my party or its leaders.. Its frustrating if you read this information then you are left in the hanging air. It deprives us the benefit of debate and defeats the purpose behind the post itself.

    Ama, am I demanding too much from Chris?

    UrXlnc, that amnesty call, by Githongo, and supported by Martha Karua, is one of the most outrageous proposals I have ever heard, especially coming after rejection of appeals of release of those youths arrested for various post elections atrocities. Double standards and hypocrisy of the highest order!

    Obviously Githongo is indirectly asking for forgiveness from the powerful people whose toes he stepped on and Martha Karua is desperately looking for political and financial support from the same group - reputed to OWN a large percentage of this country that they rule Kenya by proxy. Can you imagine Pattni, Kanyotu, Moi, Saitoti or any of their comrades at theft returning the loot after confessions to this government? Pure dreams. This Githongo guy had better get real...

    ReplyDelete
  8. Phil/Kimi/UrXlnc,
    Spot on folks. We are collectively suffering from the curse of setting the bar too low. As Vikii would tell you once you deify a person at the expense of institutions they assume idol status.

    JG may be the only person left standing but his antics amounts to holding Kenya at ransom and that is DISHONESTY or selfishness.

    Kenyan is crying for LEADERSHIP and our clutching to straws is symptomatic of residual effects from Moi's ruineous ERROR. We know what we want but how to get there is the problem hence settling for less. Not need to sell ourselves for less let us RAISE the bar and demand it is attained.

    ReplyDelete
  9. I think Githongo has no dossier to give today. The man had three years tod deliver the same in his hideout. This guy is an "activist" and headline grabber. If he does not plan his next move, he will soon become irrellevant. If he could not say it london, i would propose he accepts murungaru sermons - let him go to court and spill the beans - if they are still there. Mbona anaogopa murungaru? Am not sure Githongo will be helpful in the Kenya of today. No would also trust him - even Rao. Make no mistake.

    By the way Chris - Murungrau was an MP then. His pharmacy business is in Nairobi and Nyeri. Your introduction on him was wrong. He ceased to work in the pharmacy when he became an MP. That must have been your fertile imagination.

    Phil - Mzee this time i fully buy your thoughts. You are spot on.

    Mzee wa kijiji

    ReplyDelete
  10. If I can go by what anon 5.05 posted,I dont think its being paranoid,they are often communaly blamed for everything wrong in Kenya.Why for example have you never written a post about how a very well known former YK 92 operative made his wealth and is now sitting pretty in a plum ministry.To upstage former president Moi in his own backyard requires more than guts.Tell us how he made all that money

    ReplyDelete
  11. raila ni toto ya malaya mbaya. Asindwe kabisa!!

    ReplyDelete
  12. anon 7:36

    your first part, i think its the chicken or egg first story.

    am never sure whether its the communities that rally in defense first or the community is blamed first. look at the recent KPA fiasco, a manager is accused of incompetence but the community (led by their MPs) are out to defend the man, post or dont know what.

    trace history of all guys implicated in corruption scandals and or incompetence, their first step of action is to look to see whether the executive or power barons are with them, if not, hide behind party affiliation if not then run as fast as possible back to their villages and drum up ethnic support. last action always works because power brokers are forever aware that they need all the support they can get all the time.

    what we should be trying to do here is expose as many of these crooks as possible.

    UrXlnc

    ReplyDelete
  13. While the idea of amnesty may be sending the wrong message to the crooks, one has to weigh the options available before dismissing Githongo's views.

    How long has the Goldenberg issue been in the courts? Can you imagine how much time, energy and resources have been spent on trying to unravel just this scam?

    What am saying is that the rot is deep (from the 60s) and it might be pointlesss chasing old thieves who have obviously had time to cover their tracks.

    Why not start on a clean slate? Seal all the loopholes that previous thieves have taken advantage of.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Daniel
    Ithink we are just wasting time here with Githongo and amnesty. How many billions were lost in trying to get the golden bag culprits to justice. Let Kenyans move on and we forget about this nonsense. After all we were moving on even before the return of Githongo

    ReplyDelete
  15. Daniel
    Ithink we are just wasting time here with Githongo and amnesty. How many billions were lost in trying to get the golden bag culprits to justice. Let Kenyans move on and we forget about this nonsense. After all we were moving on even before the return of Githongo

    ReplyDelete
  16. To you all Kikuyu bashers the last national anthem at the closing ceremony of the 2008 Beijing olympics was reserved for KENYA because of one Samuel KAMAU WANJIRU!By the way why cant Luo's be olympic champs after all these years of running away from tear gas?

    ReplyDelete
  17. What taxpayers stand to lose in corruption amnesty plan Written by Jim Onyango
    August 25, 2008:


    A new government plan to offer amnesty to the architects of past corruption could wipe out the taxpayers’ hopes of recovering more than Sh200 billion lost plunderers in the past two decades, according to latest estimates.

    This estimate is based on money lost in the Goldenberg scandal, Kenya’s biggest financial scam that consumed Sh160 billion and the Anglo Leasing affair — the security related contracts through which the country was poised to lose more than Sh50 billion.

    The amnesty initiative, which has been crafted by the Ministry of Justice and Constitutional Affairs, is already at an advanced stage and a Bill to enact a new law to manage the process is expected in Parliament in October.

    Although the offer of amnesty is tied to a confession and readiness by those involved in corruption to return the loot, its opponents point to the fact that similar efforts in other countries have yielded only a tiny fraction of the total amounts lost.

    Protracted negotiations
    Nigeria is, for instance, known to have recovered less than 30 per cent of the money that former dictator Sanni Abacha stole and kept in foreign bank accounts after protracted negotiations with his family and associates.

    Because many of the culprits end up less wealthy than they were when they stole from the public, recovery of money from seekers of amnesty is often a lengthy and complicated process that includes a determination of what the individual is capable of returning.

    During these negotiations, the culprit tables before the authorities what he or she is willing to return and the authorities, using their knowledge of what the person owns, craft an agreement of what they are willing to accept in exchange for the amnesty.

    Anti-corruption pressure groups say the changed financial fortunes of many of those involved in the Goldenberg plunder, for example, means that such a process will lead to the recovery of not more 10 per cent of total amount lost.

    “We are unlikely to recover more than Sh10 billion of the estimated Sh160 billion that the Justice Bosire-led commission said was lost in the scandal,” said Mwalimu Mati of Mars Group Kenya, an anti-corruption pressure group.

    Judging by the current national budget estimates, Sh160 billion could run the ministries of Education, Medical Services and the National Assembly for a whole year.

    The Education ministry was allocated Sh106 billion while Medical Services got Sh23 billion in the budget, which was tabled in Parliament on June 12.

    In the Anglo Leasing scandal, Kenya was poised to lose billion shillings in contractual commitments involving loans that would have been serviced for more than 30 years.

    Though the whistle was blown on the architects before they covered much ground, it is estimated that the tax payer had already lost Sh6.9 billion by the time the deals were stopped, which is more than the combined budgets of the Housing, Tourism, Public Health and Lands ministries.

    Writing in a 2006 special audit of the 18 security contracts awarded to the shadowy Anglo Leasing and Finance company, the Controller and Auditor General said the Government had committed to spending Sh56.33 billion through the supplier and financier contracts.

    “The commitments were in the form of irrevocable promissory notes to the credit providers that were handed over to the creditors on the dates the respective agreements were signed,” the auditor general said.

    Whether the Government is still legally tied to paying these amounts in the form of promissory notes remains unresolved. But should that turn out to be the case, the total amount of money lost in corruption would easily add to more than Sh200 billion.

    That amount is without the hundreds of millions spent in the many efforts that have been made to recover the principal sums, which includes money spent by the anti-corruption commission in tracking the footprints of the plunderers as well as the hundreds of millions spent on the Commission of Inquiry into the Goldenberg Affair.

    While he held the position of permanent secretary in charge of Ethics in the Office of the President, Mr John Githongo also contributed to the revving up of this bill when he hired a private investigations and security firm Kroll & Associates to trace money which Kenyans have over the years stolen and stashed in foreign accounts.

    The contract worth more than Sh70 million produced a report that was handed over to the government but no action has since been taken making it one of the many red herrings that Kenya has had in the war against corruption.

    The ongoing inquiry into the sale of the Grand Regency Hotel, whose construction and ownership has been linked to the Goldenberg affair, is expected to raise the cost of corruption even higher.

    Businessman Kamlesh Pattni, the Goldenberg architect against who the Bosire commission recommended action and a host of other current and former public officers could benefit from the amnesty initiative.

    Coming at time when the country is facing a huge public expenditure bill, many anti-corruption crusaders are opposing the initiative, pointing to the fact that amnesty is already provided for in the Economic Crimes Act and the Kenya Anti Corruption Commission Act.

    “Kenya risks losing the will to fight graft. The gains already made in the fight against corruption will be eroded,” said Mr Mati, who is a former director of the Kenyan chapter of Transparency International.

    Mr Githongo, who started the latest round of the amnesty debate, said prosecuting corruption suspects would not yield any results.

    “Prosecution is a blunt instrument in the fight against corruption. The corrupt always prefer to be prosecuted because they can hire lawyers,” Mr Githongo told a meeting organised by the human rights crusaders during his first public appearance in Kenya since he blew the whistle on the Anglo Leasing scandal and went into exile three years ago.

    “Githongo is encouraging impunity. We can still recover this money if our judiciary was reformed,” said Mr Mati.

    Justice minister Martha Karua defended the amnesty offer on the grounds that the country could not deal with past corruption forever.

    http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9571&Itemid=5822

    ReplyDelete
  18. Once again this is trash blogging and I am sorry I have to say that:

    Dr Murungaru was elected Member of Parliament in 1998 after the death of then MP and a friend of his, Mr. Munene Kairu died. That's a whole four years before the 2002 elections. So when Chris talks about a sweaty, burly man going about his business on the streets of Mombasa "shortly" before the polls, is he implying the MP was pushing mikokotenis? And again is that what pharmacists do? It's not that this is any important but it loudly says something about the authenticity of his claims. And you guys get offended at the use of the word "fiction"?

    Look here guys, like I said, we will have to upgrade. John Githongo may have done some dramatic things (tape-recording government colleagues), but that was it. We talk of him as if he is the panacea of all Kenya's corruption. We glorify him to extents that are, honestly, off-putting. And these are tactics being used by clever politicians that want to tap on the gullibility of Kenyans by soliciting for favourable press for Githongo. This nonsense is all political posturing!

    The fight against corruption will not be won by idolizing individuals. We will have to detach politics (which is what Mr. Githongo focuses on) from this fight if we are to succeed.

    Instead of making Mr. Githongo a Kobe Bryant of sorts, we should be putting pressure on the government to prosecute those implicated by the various credible commissions on which we spent so much money. The government should be summoning to court the persons iplicated by the Bosire Commission on the Goldenberg scam, the Paul Ndung'u report on land grabbing, the UK-led PAC report on Anglo leasing and all the othe other corruption suspects that we know.

    But Kenyans being who they are,the interest is not a genuine onslaught on the corrupt. No, the interest is political games!

    ReplyDelete
  19. Phil:

    You have done good to put Chris where he belongs. Although your intention was to defend ODM, you ended speaking for the silent majority Kumekuchans. We were promised about a weekend special about some Kenyans who are not having a good weekend; and what do we get? Stale news about Sweaty Murungaru, deitification of Self-Seeker Githongo, and some nameless ODMers who are supposed to be corrupt. Even many aspects of the story about Sweaty Murungaru are wrong! By 2002 he was already Kieni MP for a couple of years after in heriting the seat from his godfather, the late Mr. Kairu. During the months Chris is refering to, Murungaru was the fundraising chairman of Kibaki's presidential campaign, a position he was given by Kibaki's golfing buddies. Plus what is so new about Murungaru sleeping around with the former nominated MP of mixed heritage who drives a Merzedes compressor?

    And what about the old hat Githongo? I was originally a supporter of Githongo untill it dawned on me that Githongo is in this thing for himself. If he loves Kenya as he proclaims infront of every TV camera, let him accept the court service from Murungaru; go to court and spill the beans and we will support him 100%. Anything else is grandstanding.

    I am not an ODMer, but I agree wholly with Phil that associating parties or communities with corrupt nameless individuals is a tactic Chris and many other cheap shooters have employed to the detriment of relations in our country. They must be told for the millionth time that there are no thieving parties or communities, only individuals; and those individual thieves have names.

    Chris, please name these ODMers who are not sleeping well because of Githongo or for ever zip your mouth. Leo ni leo, asimaye kesho ni muongo!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  20. Check what these okuyus are upto ...this time!


    ....Our team bumped into a group of about five men loading a sickly cow onto a pick-up that was reportedly slaughtered a few minutes later in Dagoretti.

    It is now emerging that game, dog and donkey meat might have found its way into most of the butcheries in the city.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Leaders oppose allowances for PM and VP’s wives

    (read how your molasses deity wants to freece kenya)

    Published on 25/08/2008
    By Biketi Kikechi And Osinde Obare
    (http://www.eastandard.net/InsidePage.php?id=1143993372&cid=4&)

    Members of Parliament opposed plans by the Government to pay the wives of the Prime Minister and Vice President an entertainment allowance.

    Meeting in Kitale on Saturday, they condemned the proposal by Head of Public Service Francis Muthaura.


    MPs Cyrus Jirongo (Lugari), Ababu Namwamba (Budalangi), Musikari Kombo (nominated) and Bonny Khalwale (Ikholomani) said Kenyans were overburdened.

    "Bwana Prime Minister, raise something small for mama just like the rest of us," said Kutuny.

    They said Muthaura had proposed the PM and VP’s wives be paid Sh400,000 entertainment allowance.

    Charity work

    They advised the two ladies to do charity work.

    Nine MPs from Western Province resolved to pick one of their own for the presidency in 2012.

    The MPs led by Jirongo, KADDU, said disunity and leadership wrangles had worked against the Luhya community’s desire to produce a candidate for the top seat.

    The MPs argued that unless they embraced unity capturing the presidency would be a dream.

    They told President Kibaki and Raila to retire from politics and give room to youthful leaders after 2012.

    Power game

    But Raila rubbished what he termed tribal leadership and warned the MPs against relying on the community’s vote to ascend to power.

    "Kura ya Waluhyia pekee itapeleka wewe wapi? (Where will the luhya vote alone take you?" asked Raila.

    Jirongo lsaid Deputy PM Musalia Mudavadi avoided the unity debate and based his speech on the need to give the country a new constitution.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Chris,

    I agree with the comments above about your evasiveness when it comes to exposing corruption by certain individuals here. To make it easier for you, why don't you expose the individuals without necessarily linking them to political parties or tribes? It's not the parties or tribes that are the thieves, but the individuals.

    And Phil, i like your comment above. So don't spoil it by defending corrupt individuals exposed by Chris simply coz they belong to ODM.

    As for Githongo, he seems to have come back to earth after learning that even his british masters are not that clean, either....

    ReplyDelete
  23. Chris
    Sometimes you try to spew dirt on ODM and it comes back to haunt you since it is usually propaganda handed to you by your PNU snitch or adviser:)

    Since when did Anglo leasing become a ODM affair?? or did your key board slip by mistake and it was "PNU" I mean the then Narc affair??

    Chris Remember ODM was not even born then when Narc was busy looting the government from 2002-2007 -

    I suggest Chris you get your stories right yes i know you own this blog but are you also going to peddle lies to your kumekucha readers????

    get real it will not wash...... Anglo leasing, Transcentury, Charter house, Grand Regency, stop wasting our time- go ask Kibaki and his cronies or maybe Githongo can shade more light to part of the saga as we know it if indeed he has the balls to do so...... as for Dr. Chris..... he know who he eat with and it ain't anyone in ODM trust me we all know those who are shitting in their pants from Central Province:):)

    have a fruitful day you all that eat with Dr. Chris ......

    ReplyDelete
  24. Anonymous Anonymous said...

    raila ni toto ya malaya mbaya. Asindwe kabisa!!

    8:03 AM

    correction:

    "KIBAKI" ni toto ya malaya mbaya. Asindwe kabisa!!( AND THIS IS THE PURE TRUTH)

    ReplyDelete

Any posts breaking the house rules of COMMON DECENCY will be promptly deleted, i.e. NO TRIBALISTIC, racist, sexist, homophobic, sexually explicit, abusive, swearing, DIVERSIONS, impersonation and spam AMONG OTHERS. No exceptions WHATSOEVER.